Non-receipt of item; paid with Paypal.....

EagleEyeKid

Need opinion to resolution. I'm in the middle of a non-receipt of my items in which I paid with Paypal. This is my first experience with this. I always pay with paypal and have never had a problem. Granted 99% of the time, the seller never uses any sort of confirmation of delivery and I'm fine with that as long as I get the item that I paid for. This is my first file with PP. I filed with Paypal on the 27th day of non-receipt and have spoken to the seller. He said he sent it out first class and that was it and I'm basically screwed since I didn't pay for insurance. He never showed me proof of delivery and has been leery in his responses to my questions. Paypal found him at fault but only gave me back $4.80 out of the $57 paid because he pretty much dried his account or took out his money so he wouldn't have to recoupe it.....and in doing so, he's not allowed to use Paypal anymore. That gives me the impression that he was ready for it and pretty much says he's guilty. What kind of feedback would you give this person? Granted I did not pay for insurance, but he's never showed me any proof that he sent it out, and bailing out of Paypal almost says I'm taking your $ and running. Should I just leave him negative and take my loses? It's now going on 45 days and still no items. What would you do?

RedRomad275

Guess that $1.30 for insurance seems cheap now. My rule is anything over $50 I insure unless it is something I really want. It relieves headaches to just get it. I would leave him a negative and chalk it up to lessons learned.

NickM

Absolutely leave him the negative.

Nick

ctsoxfan

Without a doubt, a negative is called for. If you got all of your money back, maybe...but it looks like the seller was ready for this, and therefore seems at fault.

iamthegreatcornholio

Leave him a neg....

Sorry to hijack this thread but I recall another user here bragging about how he never pays for insurance because PayPal would come to his rescue. A lesson learned.

Brian

envoy98

Leave the neg. Here is the problem with insurance. If the guy didn't send the item in the first place, you'd be out another 1.30 besides. I insure stuff over $50 and that's about it. I think insurance is more for the risk-of-damage than the "lost in transit" protection. I am actually surprised Paypal gave you back the $4.80. When I had a seller stiff me (I did pay for Ins) I didn't get anything back until they collected all of it. He owed me over $500, they recouped something like $47 in the beginning. He finally sent me the rest of my stuff and that was that. I have a feeling insurance wouldn't have done you any good here since you say he is so evasive. Chalk it up to one of life's lessons, leave the neg he deserves, take the retaliatory neg and calmly explain your position without namecalling or rants. Just state "sunuvab1tch took my $ and ran. worthless as they come don't bid. moron! Buyer beware. a whole family of losers!"...oh wait... what I mean to say was "seller was evasive and failed to deliver product after 45 days & no refund rec'd. Avoid" That states your case, gives you the credibility and lets you move on. Make sure you post the follow up with the same info in your feedback profile. I get nervous sometimes when I see a few negs responded too then all of a sudden a few that aren't. Makes me wonder...

Knopfler

<< <i>That gives me the impression that he was ready for it and pretty much says he's guilty. >>



Not saying this seller is guilty or innocent, but I dry out my paypal account after every item I sell. I buy cards quite often and I always use my credit card (only $50,000 more on the credit card until a free ski trip!) via paypal unless the seller does not accept it. Paypal forces me to pay with my paypal balance if I have any balance available, so the only solution I have found so far is to not have a balance!

hojodojonono

Did you use a credit card with Paypal? Challenge the charge with your bank and you will get your money back. If the guy had $57 in his account you would a got it all but they gave you what they could get. Your bank will get it all back for you.

What did the item description say about how your item was going to be sent and how much did you pay for delivery. If all it said was first class mail and cheap and you didn't take the insurance which was offered that'd record shipping, then you knew you were taking a risk in saving a dollar or two. Then the item gets lost and you go back and want the protection that the insurance would've gave you. It's just as much your fault as the sellers that this happened.

jrdolan

I'm facing the situation in reverse with a buyer. He declined insurance despite the disclaimer in my listing, claimed the card never came, now wants money back.

In principal I agree he should get money back if he is telling the truth -- which I have no way to determine. Of course that means I will lose both the card and the money, which sucks pretty bad too since it is $400 and not a card where I can simply send another.

I told the guy I would present the facts to PayPal and eBay and follow their advice. I'm sure it will go his way, since the system leans toward protecting buyers rather than sellers. And if he is scamming me, he will have done it royally well.

hojodojonono

jrdolan. The system leans towards protecting people who follow rules. If you took Paypal you had to send it with Signature Confirmation in order to be protected in case it was lost. Paypal doesn't care about insurance, it's signature confirmation. You lose if the guy gets it or not if you don't have Signature confirmation. Signature confirmation protects you for Paypal claims, and Postal Insurance protects you for damage or loss. You'll use the Sig. Confirmation way more than you'll ever need to use the Postal Insurance.

ctsoxfan

I don't believe Signature confirmation is required by PayPal, delivery confirmation should be proof enough. I don't send anything without it, even if I have to pay the few cents myself.

NickM

ctsox - Signature confirmation is required by PayPal for items over a certain price ($250 IIRC). Delivery confirmation is sufficient for other items.

Nick

SDavid

jrdolan -

If he wins with paypal/ebay, I'd go ahead and inform the US postal inspectors about this buyer's claim. They won't intervene since you have no POD, but at least they'll have something on file if he pulls this again. Packages are rarely lost by the USPS, so if this buyer claims it happens repeatedly...

EagleEyeKid

Thanks for the all the comments...all taken into consideration. I guess I'm out the difference of $52.20....lesson learned. It was for 2 separate items won the same day. First class shipping was $3 for first item, and $2 for each additional item which I think is crap for 2 raw cards but I paid it anyways because that was what was stated and I wanted the cards. Envoy, I will use your sample Neg. quote within the week. It is concise yet professional without the street thug tone. I've learn a little more about Paypal here. I paid with my balance that I had. Even if it didn't come from my balance, it would be taken from my checking. My credit card is the backup source which has never been used. Like many others, I thought Paypal would protect me and therefore the main way in which I pay for my auctions; that's why I opted not to pay the insurance because they at least have to show proof of delivery or confirmation of sorts. Like I said earlier, 99% of the time it never has any sort of confirmation on items I've received. I get a lot of .37 cent envelopes, .49 cent small bubble mailers which I don't mind. Like I said, as long as I get the card(s) in whatever method they send it in; I'm happy. As a seller myself, I charge $2.50 for shipping......that includes a box, packing peanuts, and delivery confirmation....all raw singles or graded cards and .50 for each additional item. Oh well. Thanks for the responses everyone.

WinPitcher

. My credit card is the backup source which has never been used.

you can always bypass the checking acct by utilizing the "more funding options" you then can pay via credit card..........this assumes seller accepts paypal that way.....

SDavid

I've read that people have had their paypal accounts shut down for doing chargebacks through their cc instead of going through paypal, but before you think about paying insurance for packages in that price range, think about how much you would have shelled out in insurance for all the similar packages you've ordered versus how much you've lost from packages not received.

If I had insured every package in that price range, I would have easily paid over $500 in insurance. I've had one package not arrive ($45), and the seller gave me a refund.

jrdolan

I have sympathy for those who pay for an item and the seller does not fulfill his part of the contract, either deliberately or through carelessness. I am generally skeptical about the PO losing packages, but since human beings are involved, I know they sometimes stick them into the wrong PO box. Today I got a package with 5 Morgan silver dollars addressed to someone whose name and box # are not even close to my own. If I was sleazy and dishonest, I would keep the coins and the real buyer would properly file a claim and the seller would be screwed... as I am in my own case as a seller.

The problem with the system is that PayPal AUTOMATICALLY takes the side of the buyer. This is well and proper... as long as the buyer is telling the truth and not manipulating the system.

In my case, the buyer filed a claim stating that his card never arrived. I then received a form letter from PayPal giving me 3 options which I must use within 7 days or PayPal will simply take the money and then place restrictions on my account:

1) Give the buyer a full refund.
2) Demonstrate that I have already given a refund.
3) Give a tracking number proving the item was delivered.

This letter was totally impersonal and generic in nature. I was not given an opportunity to state my case (because, I assume, I have no case without a tracking number). I doubt a human at PayPal was even involved in the "decision" on this case. The buyer made a claim under "non-delivery" and PayPal's computer issued this edict.

The lesson, as people have been saying, is to always use signature delivery or tracking on any item where you can't afford to eat the loss. Build that cost into your shipping fee. Insurance does get the parcel scanned, proving I sent it, and does (eventually) get me the insured value if the package is genuinely lost, but it is meaningless to PayPal, as far as I can see.

habs71

<< <i>Today I got a package with 5 Morgan silver dollars addressed to someone whose name and box # are not even close to my own. >>



How do you know what was inside the package?


Skip

iamthegreatcornholio

<< <i> Packages are rarely lost by the USPS... >>

Aknot

<< <i>

<< <i>Today I got a package with 5 Morgan silver dollars addressed to someone whose name and box # are not even close to my own. >>



How do you know what was inside the package?


Skip >>



I was thinking the exact same thing. X-ray vision? On the other hand if you do get a lot of packages and or are expecting a few I can understand getting "happy" and opening a few and realizing "hey I didnt order this" after opening one that was not addressed to you that was misdelivered.

bxb

I believe if you insure a package for $100 or more (even if the value is less than that), a signature will be required upon delivery of the package, and this would provide proof of delivery.

jrdolan

<< <i><< Today I got a package with 5 Morgan silver dollars addressed to someone whose name and box # are not even close to my own. >>



How do you know what was inside the package?
>>



I returned from vacation and tore into a bevy of bubble envelopes. I didn't realize one of them was not mine until I saw it contained coins instead of cards. It's going back to the PO this morning. Jeez, you guys are cynical!

Spigrimace

Did the auction state something like, "seller is not responsible for uninsured lost or damaged items?" If so, you shouldn't neg him.

Sellers: Remember Click-n-ship at www.usps.gov gives you free delivery confirmation. They'll even ship you supplies for free that you can order right there online. Use the flat-rate priority envelope with thick cardboard. I have never had a problem with it. $3.85 on a $47 card is fine. But I know it's not efficient for $3 card.

Spigrimace

As for the money not being in the seller's account, I daily sweep my paypal balance out to my bank account. It's electronic, free and paypal isn't paying me interest while my bank is! So I wouldn't say just because the $ isn't there, 27 days later, that he's a crook.

hojodojonono

bxb. I believe if you insure a package for $100 or more (even if the value is less than that), a signature will be required upon delivery of the package, and this would provide proof of delivery.
You're correct but that doesn't mean anything to Paypal. They want a tracking number that shows delivery that can be verified online. By the time you pay for and obtain the proof of delivery from the PO it will be a couple weeks late to respond to Paypal with what they require.
How's this scenario? You send out your package insured for $100 and the buyer puts in a claim with Paypal that he didn't get it. Paypal takes the money from you if you have it in your account and freezes your account if you don't. You figure no big deal and just file your insurance claim with the PO. You get turned down because the PO shows it was delivered. Now as long as it shows delivery to him, and he has denied it to scam Paypal, the good news is you can file a report of mail fraud on him through the PO.

envoy98

hojo is right. Insurance, even with a signature does not provide proof. It can't be tracked on a computer using their webservice. Like jrdolan said it was spit out by a computer and human was not even involved. I found this out the hard way on a PSA 7 Yaz rookie. I insured it, but no deliv conf....lost $130 and the card. Buyer even claimed it was the 6th or 7th time in less than a month. I'm sorry, but not even the post office could lose that many packages to one guy. Do yourself a favor. Anything you send, even if it's $10, put delivery confirmation on it. Anything over 250, signature confirmation. (Build the extra 1.80 into your shipping) It protects you and them.

I do want to point out one thing about EagleEye here... I think the point that is still getting lost is that it is only his fault he didn't purchase insurance if the seller actually sent the package. If he had paid for insurance would he for sure get his money back? Only if the seller actually mailed it and only if he purchased insurance. I've had sellers send stuff without insurance before after I paid for it, some of them are slick and try to claim the "oh yeah...well..but I self insure" um no. Gimme my $$$ back. I'm not taking sides on this as the seller might have sent it, the buyer might have gotten it or the po might have genuinely lost it. There are too many variables and unfortunately, too many unscrupulous people in this world to take the risk. 55cents is a cheap price to pay, especially as a seller. I use it even when not selling with paypal. Then I know it was delivered. In fact, I just sent a $500 card that I got paid with a check and sent it with sig confirmation for my own protection.

Tabe

<< <i>

<< <i> Packages are rarely lost by the USPS... >>



>>


In my experience that's true. Over the past 10 years or so, using 4 different post offices, I'd estimate that I've shipped in the neighborhood of 3000 packages, possibly more, and I've received well over 500, possibly 1000. In that time, I've had two get lost. And one of the lost packages was a package that was shipped to Panama. I've never had a package sent to me get lost.

I'd say 1 or 2 packages lost in 4000 qualifies as "rarely".

Tabe
www.tabe.nu

jrdolan

I agree with the above, that lost packages are rare. So rare, in fact, that most people feel safe in declining the insurance. Heck, I do too, unless it's a really expensive item. The PO does a really good job at what it does, one which we take for granted until they screw up. That's the one that gets talked about.

It's the rarity of these screwups that makes me skeptical about the "where's my card?" stories. I guess I find it more likely that somebody would try to get a card for free than the Post Office would lose the package. It does happen (I received someone else's Morgan dollars today), but it is VERY unusual.

The number of CLAIMS, however, may be a different story. It's a big loophole in the PayPal system, and I suspect it will be used more and more by the unscrupulous until PayPal closes it.

iamthegreatcornholio

Well as anecdotal as it seems, my major gripe is packages insured for less than $100. On both ends, buying and selling, I've had 4/10 stolen in the mail - all within a few weeks. I heard that there was a big investigation in the Atlanta PO about internal theft. The bottom line is that if it is insured for $50-$99 it doesn't receive the "blue slip" that packages over $100 receive. So if/when the package is stolen, there is no investigation, and the local PO gives me money (after a month of waiting). Since it's insured they know it's worth something, but not enough to draw investigation. I've never had a package insured for $100 or over lost so I either insure for that or not at all.

I'd say 4 packages lost in 40 hardly qualifies as "rarely".

Brian

RedRomad275

I'd have to agree with Tabe. I have either sent or received approx. 1000 packages over the last couple years and never had problems from the PO. My issue has always been with the seller. Of course now that i say this I won't get my package of 10 1933 Goudey's

jrdolan

Well, you can look at any incident or group of incidents and say it's not "rare" for that sample. 4/10 or even 4/40 would indeed be a major problem if that ratio held true as you broadened the picture. I don't think anyone would claim that the PO loses 40% or even 10% of its packages overall, or that theft by a postal employee is a common occurrence.

Regardless of whether it's the PO losing the package or a sleazy buyer trying to get the card for free, I guess this small percentage of cases is part of the cost of doing business the way we do. We can protect ourselves by adding time and expense to the delivery process (confirmation, insurance), or we can eat it when our unlucky number comes up. I've seen some policies here that make a lot of sense to me, and I am now adding delivery confirmation to everything, with signature on $250 and up.

Somebody said "Don't accept PayPal!" OK, that means saying "tough cookies" and eating a neg when a buyer claims the card didn't arrive, but that's another story. My question is, how many potential bidders shy away if PayPal is not accepted? This maybe needs another thread so more non-PayPal sellers can weigh in.