Population one of one's that aren't

wolfbear

When I see a card advertised as a population one of one,
and I plan to bid, I generally check the actual pop report and usually the card is now a one of two.

It's because when the seller checked his card against the pop report,
the pop report had not yet been updated to include the card he is looking up.

Okay, so I know it's not a pop one of one, but I still end up paying more for it,
because of the other bidders that think it's a one of one, and jack up the price accordingly.

Sellers, to make sure you've got it right, all it takes is a simple comparison
of the date your card was graded to the date the pop report was last updated.

murcerfan

jmullen

I can do you one better. I can show you two cards, with different cert numbers, that both check out as being PSA graded ... when the pop report says 1/1. This is a huge problem with the 1968 topps test basketball cards as I know at least two instances when this occurred. From what I gather, one of the lots was taken in the old days to on-site grading and somehow that translated as to the system recoginizing the cards .... but them not being added to the pop report.

Furthermore ... PSA should have a way to reduce the population report when a card is broken out of a holder. If PSA was to give a $1 to whoever handed in their PSA labels ... this could be a motive to do it ... This is an even bigger problem (although it only positively affects buying, it is harder to get a good price when selling)

-Mullen
jeff@vintagebasketballcards.info
http://www.vintagebasketballcards.info

rbeaton

I would like to see PSA do a few things to stop this practice. First, update the population report daily, so people don't have card in hand before it's in the population report. This seems like it would be really easy to do. The second, is to setup something where you could click a link in an Ebay auction and see the following:

I don't see them doing this because they would have to give the pop reports away for free.

Robert

bobsbbcards

<< <i>This is a huge problem with the 1968 topps test basketball cards as I know at least two instances when this occurred. >>



I've noticed that when I go to the Pop Report for Baseball/1968, there is a 1968 Topps Test Issue link. When clicked, it lists 3 of the 1968 Topps Basketball Test issue cards (Havlicek, West, and Lucas). Wondering if that is what is going on in this case (listed under the wrong sport).

dude

Yep, besides nuclear holocausts and ax murderers, sandbagging the pop report on eBay auctions is one of my biggets pet peeves and I agree that it can only drive the prices up.

For those who attended the Registry Summit Dinner in Chicago you probably remember this story. There was a dealer from the Pacific Northwest who was so blantantly bad about his pop numbers, he would even claim a 1 of 1 PSA 9 on a Pop. 28 card. People were getting so fed up with these gross errors and watching people get duped on a continuous basis that one major collector finally confronted him about his advertised pop numbers and this dealer's defense was that he did not have access to the on-line report and didn't see the need for paying for the on-line subscription, so he had no choice but to use a printout someone gave him that was 4 months old. So this collector volunteered to send him a new pop report 5 days before this dealer was planning to run his next auction on the issue of cards that this collector was collecting just to minimize the errors of the advertised pop numbers. After the dealer received this report, he e-mailed the collector back and told him that he was running auctions on 5 different other issues of cards, and the dealer asked the collector to please send him pop reports of those years too. The collector didn't collect those years of cards and was livid and sent those 5 other reports to him by FedEx and left a note in the package telling the dealer to never bother him again.


edited for spelling

aconte

Dude,

That was interesting to read. You sure meet all kinds of people out there!

aconte

SKINSFAN

Just a idea here but how much trouble would it be when psa puts the header cert tag in ,to put a number right next to the bar code that states the 2nd or 4th showing how many of this card has been graded in this grade. this way when someone trys to pull a fast one and say 1 of 1 if its a fresh grade it would say 2nd right on the lable.

OhioTaz

I like Robert's idea! PSA would not have to give the Pop report away. When a cert # is placed you would get what you are getting now. If you were a member and logged in you would get a display like Robert's. Value added for being a member. Next to no cost for PSA. I think you are onto something.

Taz

thefootballcardstore

Here's my point:

Would you rather the seller not report any population figures at all? What then?
People go to the pop report and still see 1/1. So is it the sellers responsiblity (even if they normally don't report numbers) to report what date the card was graded and that the population report might not be accurate? I don't think so.

So whether or not the seller reports pop data in the auction is really irrelevant (unless they are doing something on purpose).
It comes down to, PSA needs to update pop report data more often, or people should count on the data being accurate less.

Personally, we have moved away from reporting any figures at all, it is time consuming and anyone who is concerned with population will be able to look it up themselves.

I recommend that if your decicion is based on a population figure, don't bid (set snipe) until a Tuesday, look up the pop number yourself and go from there. Tuesday's provide the most accurate information.

Jeremy

jimtb

rbeaton,
That's a great idea. It would clear up any doubts as to the population. Now your job is to convince PSA to go for it. It's a great service for us, a major hit in the popcketbook for them...
Jim

tripoli

It's called Marketing. If I'm a seller and say the card is 1/1, it's up to the buyer to check into the stats. Think of Volvo marketing their cars as being 'safer', or water companies saying their water is 'pure" when you know it has crap added back into it....If you believe everything you see on tv, then you would be 300lbs, eating fast food and thinking you were being healthy.

OhioTaz

Maybe adding to Robert's idea you would get even more info when you enter a cert #.

For instance:


30136279----1969 Topps #600 Tony Oliva----PSA 8----Pop 49----SMR $26

Now that would be service.

Taz

NickM

tripoli - that's not marketing. If a seller is putting down Pop Report information that was not accurate the last time the seller looked at the Pop Report, that's lying. Certain things a seller can puff to sell the product. Figures like that, they can't. It would be like an automobile dealer posting fuel efficiency (mpg) ratings on the window of the card that he knew were not the ratings the manufacturer told him, or saying it had a 5-disc CD changer when it had a 3-disc CD changer.

Nick

Browntoni

My pet peeve is those that advertise a card as 1/1 in a certain grade. They just fail to mention that a card or 2 grade higher!!!

mexisar

it can be done like yahoo auctions does with graded cards right now. don't know the number of companies they do it for but I know they do it for bgs, and believe sgc as well

tripoli

MPG! Now that's a statistic that is useless. And I repeat: it is about marketing and talking up your merchandise.....and it's up to us to call out the sellers when they use incorrect data in their auctions...oh wait, we've been warned not to interfere with ebay auctions or else the lawyers will get involved.

dan

Scumbi

First, PSA is not responsible for dealers doing false advertising on Ebay. The seller is responsible and his claim is cause for criminal prosecution. Ebay has to start investigating false claims and suspending sellers. They never accept any responsibility. Ebay fraud is no different than mail fraud and should be treated as a Federal Offense if cards are sold out of state. Ebay keeps growing and raking in the money without the slightest concern for the buyer.

In terms of the PSA pop. report, there's a little problem. The whole thing is completely worthless at this point. Resubmissions and WIWAG have completely skewed the report. There's no way to fix it. The boat has sailed. That's why it has to be used as a loose guide. When investing a large amount of money, it's awfully flimsy as a device to use in the decision making process. Cards cannot be resubmitted within their PSA holders because of the dangers of the Wentz Upgrade Scenario (One incident where Wentz was actually right). So, even being careful isn't a guarantee of getting a correct population reading.

Additionally, we do not know what grade cards are sitting in GAI holders. They have no population report. They have no population either, but there are high end examples in their holders.

Bottom line is card collecting is changing quite a bit. Dealers are now in direct competition with us to acquire material on Ebay because fresh, raw, quality cards are not walking into their stores or being sent to them anymore. Three minutes on Ebay give you a better idea of your cards' value than getting hustled by a greedy dealer with a Beckett high/low guide. If these piggies didn't give you fifty percent of the lower column and try to sell for 150 percent of the higher column, they might actually be able to stock their inventories. The days of "I have a large overhead with rent, staff, showcases, etc.." are over. Most of the dealers work almost exclusively on the internet with the aid of their wife or a reliable second. Some still do the card shows, but most of the time you know what's going to be at a show by checking dealer websites. The margin on cards is going to decrease in the future. Dealers are going to have to do their research if they want to compete. They need to anticipate collecting trends. It means a lot of work. Also, accordingly with the margin decrease, they are going to have to increase volume sales. Auction Houses seem to be going strong. However, the shilling that has been pointed out on Ebay exists within the auctions too. Last, with Wentz back selling PSA cards, we have to hope the card doctors aren't able to get the cards by the PSA graders. PSA is the most vigilant in my opinion, but I don't really know how advanced the card barbers have become. I've had oversized cards in the past and I know these are considered rough diamonds to the less than ethical. Laser cutters are precise to 1/32nd of an inch.

Regarding the PSA/Joe - Beware Of Lawsuits thread, I hope PSA isn't siding with their dealers. They can easily pull their authorization tag from a dealer. I don't believe they want to alienate us. Our submissions add up. They might not come in five thousand at a time, but we are the buyers. PSA is obligated to investigate any claims of misbehavior by their authorized dealers. The PSA stamp is like the Good Housekeeping Seal. PSA needs to make sure their dealers are squeaky clean to retain our confidence. Their future depends on it. They are the only grading company that has been able to establish a modicum of trust with the public. A few dollars invested in an advisory staff to look at current trends, police dealers and keep the SMR current would be a really smart move.

Also, now is the time to upgrade the Registry board and listing system. It should be upgraded looking ten years in the future and not to just address the current situation. This has proven to be the future of the hobby to a large extent. GAI killed itself with delays. I think PSA has an opportunity to move another large leap ahead if they meet the 3 to 4 week deadline and really streamline the card entering process.

As an overview, what was once simple has become extremely complicated. This forum is our most powerful tool. How else could we possibly share our info as efficiently? So, next time you think the board is sucking because new topics aren't flowing, remember to be patient. This is all much bigger than some dull threads running for a day or two. This is a direct means of communication that works within seconds. Respect your fellow members and respect the board and process.

Best,

S.

OhioTaz

Main Entry: fraud
Pronunciation: 'frod
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English fraude, from Middle French, from Latin fraud-, fraus
1 a : DECEIT, TRICKERY; specifically : intentional perversion of truth in order to induce another to part with something of value or to surrender a legal right b : an act of deceiving or misrepresenting : TRICK
2 a : a person who is not what he or she pretends to be : IMPOSTOR; also : one who defrauds : CHEAT b : one that is not what it seems or is represented to be
synonym see DECEPTION, IMPOSTURE

There is a HUGE DIFFERENCE between marketing and intentional deception. Marketing is promoting the positives of a product while ignoring the negatives. So saying a card has 4 sharp corners when it does and ignoring the fact that it is off center in a description is marketing. Saying that it is well centered when it is not is fraudulent.

Markets only work when there is trust. Without trust, transactions cannot occur. Deceitful sellers damage a market and hurt all of the participants especially OTHER sellers. Of course it is Buyer Beware but I hope that does not lead some of us to excuse dishonest behavior as an acceptable norm.

Taz

OhioTaz

Scumbi

That is pure poetry.

Taz

CON40

Scumbi;

You've said it all with the precision of a surgeon and the artistic stroke of a Dutch Master. That's it. There's nothing left to say... ever. Any future posts on this entire forum would be a redundant mockery of Scumbi's scripture.

Thank you!

tripoli

Well put scumbi!

magellan

Echoing the last 3 posts.....Great post scumbi ! You definitely are a wordsmith and make sense to boot. Glad to see you posting.

Dave

WinPitcher

Additionally, we do not know what grade cards are sitting in GAI holders. They have no population report. They have no population either, but there are high end examples in their holders.>>>>



I heard from a lil birdy that the Gai report will be out on a Monday...

scottsusor

koby

Scumbi,

Fantastic post. You are correct on all points.

koby

ctsoxfan

More kudos to Scumbi...very well done, and a lot of excellent points made.

I had the same thoughts regarding the Joe/lawsuit thread. But, you conveyed them quite nicely!

itsawonderfullife

As a {subtle spam artist} of PSA low pop cards on Ebay, I {find I must post} on this thread {even if it adds nothing to what's already been said}. If you {haven't} notice{d} my auctions {over on the vintage trading board, maybe you will notice them over here}. I want {everyone who reads these boards} to know exactly {what I have up for auction, especially when on the final day the bids are pretty sparse}. Obviously the pop{ularity of the cards I list and the bids I've received to date are lacking}-- I have no control over either. But it really does chap me when I {arrive at the graded card selling game so late and my outdated stuff gets so little action while I see others getting rich off the low pop stuff.}

Scott {what I was really trying to say}

murcerfan

1967topps

I liked the seller who a little while back made a higher pop still seem like a positive, like
"Just 1 of 34 in this grade."

OhioTaz

Now see. THAT is marketing.

Taz

dude

Well here's this summer's winner of "One of One's That Really Aren't".

1967 BOB BOYD 1967 PHILADELPHIA PSA 8 1/1 (but it's really 1 of 15!)

1967 DICK SCHAFRATH PHILADELPHIA PSA 8 1/1 (but it's really 1 of 10!)

His other two '67 Philly PSA 8 card are also off by 400% and 300%, and I'm not even going to bother checking his other auctions.

WinPitcher

this seller is on many minds tonite it seems....see mantlefan thread