A Reminder from PSA - Message Board Issue
JoeOrlando
Posts: 122 mod
Hello All,
I hope everyone is enjoying their collecting out there. I just wanted to touch base with all of you about an issue that has come up lately on the boards.
Whether you, as an active board member, feel you have a solid grasp on a particular issue or solid basis for a claim - please remember that it is VERY DANGEROUS to accuse someone of something that involves fraud.
Lately, there have been some postings regarding the manipulation of auction bidding by certain individuals. As collectors, we know that - sadly - this is something that happens from time to time but, due to the severity of the accusation, it is very dangerous to simply assume that someone is actively participating in fraud when there is no real proof.
From PSA's perspective, the only we can do is make sure that the boards do not become a haven for these types of accusations because it is not fair to those who may have done nothing wrong and are at the mercy of false rumor. You may be attacking someone's credibility, reputation and business ethics which, as you know, is a serious issue in any business.
If we feel that this continues to be a problem, members may be removed from the boards.
Please understand that we are merely trying to provide a venue for collectors to share their thoughts and discuss collecting. For your own sake, I would refrain from public accusations of this nature because this is a serious issue.
Thanks for listening,
Joe Orlando
PSA President
Joe Orlando
CEO, Collectors Universe, Inc.
CEO, Collectors Universe, Inc.
0
Comments
Nick
Reap the whirlwind.
Need to buy something for the wife or girlfriend? Check out Vintage Designer Clothing.
I agree one should always be very prudent about making such claims. But, by exposing alleged criminal activity on these boards, we are trying to protect the buying community among us from being scammed. We are also trying to defeat the potential success of these scams netting money from unsuspecting individuals not onthese boards. The collective knowledge of collectors on this forum is astounding. If red flags are being raised regarding the suspicion of an auction, chances are something is amiss. And if by chance a few innocent indviduals are caught in this dragnet, then that is a small price to pay for making honest attempts to keep this hobby clean.
Personally, I feel if anyone has suspect activity regarding auctions, not only should it be posted here, but fraud alerts need to be filed with eBay. They are the ultimate judge and jury regarding these sellers. We are merely the patrolmen walking a beat.
Used to working on HOF SS Baseballs--Now just '67 Sox Stickers and anything Boston related.
this is a venue whereby collectors can fight back againt the sometimes cruel and fraudulent seller or dealer who will continue to do so unless the word comes out....is it serious?? ..YES!!! is fraud serious?? OH HECK YES!!! Is it a tough issue..sure..but nobody is going to sit there while someone puts a hot coal in another collectors shorts....
my 2 cents
Loth
<< <i>Any message posted on our forums expresses only the views of the author of the message and does not necessarily reflect the views of these forums or any person or entity associated with them. >>
With this disclaimer/signer agreement by PSA coupled with the First Amendment, IMO, I'll put my trust in the good people of this board.
Mike
<< <i> "NEVER GET CHEATED," is what fellow board members are trying to do for each other. >>
AGREED !!!
While I am new here, I think the whole reason of a message board should be to alert people of such frauds. Ebay obviously doesn't do much about shillers and it nice to know when you might be taken advantage of.
Just the other day I saw someone on a board here point out someone on ebay who had bid on something like 300 different auctions, but they were all from the same seller... I don't care what that guy says, its shilling.
I am as big a PSA fan and collector as anyone. These boards are the best place to talk about collecting and graded cards. Part of that is talking about buying and selling them. When we do that, if we see something occurring that doesn't seem right, don't you think we should be able to inform other collectors of it? We are all intelligent collectors, and can form our own opinions from what we read. The exchange of these ideas is necessary...to deny us that would be unfortunate.
Thank you to PSA and CU for providing these forums so that we can be educated consumers. Thank you so that we are not collecting or spending our hard-earned money with the wool pulled over our eyes. Thank you to forum posters for exposing misconduct in this great hobby.
-bladefox
The fact that people on these boards share their experiences and opinion probably saved me a ton of money and may have kept me in the hobby. It may have taken 2-3 bad transactions and I would have given up.
AKA..
Ebay - mpn2gwvputty
Ratso of the Booze Junkies MC
The dealer that you are referring to is a PSA dealer listed on your website which infers that he is being reccommended by PSA. The activity that was brought up does look suspicious. It doesn't prove that he was engaged in shilling, however, if any of your dealers are in fact shilling their own auctions it looks like you guys would want to be the first to know. If I were you, I would be looking into this matter to make sure that PSA's interests are protected.
Mint State promised to get back to the boards with their findings. I have yet to see it. From the looks of your note, it would appear that the only call their lawyers made was to you.
<< <i>Joe;
I agree one should always be very prudent about making such claims. But, by exposing alleged criminal activity on these boards, we are trying to protect the buying community among us from being scammed. We are also trying to defeat the potential success of these scams netting money from unsuspecting individuals not onthese boards. The collective knowledge of collectors on this forum is astounding. If red flags are being raised regarding the suspicion of an auction, chances are something is amiss. And if by chance a few innocent indviduals are caught in this dragnet, then that is a small price to pay for making honest attempts to keep this hobby clean.
Personally, I feel if anyone has suspect activity regarding auctions, not only should it be posted here, but fraud alerts need to be filed with eBay. They are the ultimate judge and jury regarding these sellers. We are merely the patrolmen walking a beat. >>
Joe, I am in total agreement with you on this and I cannot stress enough how I disagree with the quote above from CON40. First, there are too many Magnum PI wannabees on this board. Leave the investigating to e-bay, paypal, square-trade, law enforcement, etc. There are plenty of avenues to address these issues.
To state that it is acceptable for a few innocent individuals to be caught in this dragnet based on the some of the b.s., rumors, and false allegations on this board is so off base imo. It is easy for you to say this if you are not the one falsely accused. Some of us sell cards from time to time, but for others, it is a means of putting food on the table, sending their kids to college, etc. Would you feel the same way if it was you falsely accused in your job of doing something that wasn't true and society deemed it OK that your livelihood was ruined? I don't think so. Look at the big picture here.
I hope PSA stays true to its word in trying to remove posters and/or threads of accusations that are based on speculation, guesses, or rumors.
JG
Silver Coins
e-bay ID: grilloj39
e-mail: grilloj39@gmail.com
<< <i>Leave the investigating to e-bay, paypal, square-trade, law enforcement, etc.
JG >>
Dear God, tell me you're joking.
Do you really think Ebay, Paypal and Squaretrade give a hoot about the possibility of shill bidding? Let alone 'law enforcement'?
From what I remember about the Mint State thread, someone brought up the links to the questionable shill account. From there, people formed their own conclusions. This is now bad?!?!
GO MARLINS! Home of the best fans in baseball!!
<< <i>I hope PSA stays true to its word in trying to remove posters and/or threads of accusations that are based on speculation, guesses, or rumors. >>
JG
Nobody would argue the fact that a baseless attack on someone would be unfair. IMO, there is confusion here to the full scope of the message. I think the message is vague and unspecific. Rather than pinpointing a specific problem, it's tenor seems to encompass censorship and suppression of the ability of members to address what appears to be impropriety with respect to transactions on ebay. I am new to ebay/forums - so I wil leave this to the more experienced - but from my limited experience with respect to the internet - no one is truly enforcing anything. Many "scam" auctions that have been cancelled are the Direct work of people on this board.
You make a good point, but most make a better one.
Mike
edit: grammar
<< <i>Leave the investigating to e-bay, paypal, square-trade, law enforcement, etc. >>
Do you believe in Santa and the tooth fairy too???
I haven't laughed that hard in a long time...thanks
..........................working round the clock for that Monday dead-line.
Could Somebody tell me who and what exactly these False accusations were.
Griilo;
No offense, but this is a very naive standpoint you take. Who is supposed to inform Paypal, ebay, FBI, etc of potential criminial activity? All of these organizations actively seek user/consumer particiation to alert them to take action. Without this vital communication, they would almost never be aware of criminal intent (nevermind gray areas like PRO and doctored cards where feedback here is vital to identifying scam auctions).
By posting alerts and questions on these boards, we are not pretending to be a bunch of gumshoes, we are sharing our opinions, looking for feedback, and generally seeking validation before taking action with eBay, law enforcement, etc. If someone's suspicions are off-base, it is usually pointed out pretty quickly here by a better informed or more experienced collector/dealer and the issue gets dropped. 95% of the time, this system works very well in my opinion. Our collective actions have been a safety net for many people when diving into a potentially dubious contract with an online seller.
As I said, I notify eBay, FBI, etc and let them take steps to stop the auction and pursue legal action. If my notifications to them are erroneous, nothing happens and the seller can peddle his wares. Who is harmed? The seller might lose a couple bidders, but his life goes on unscathed. I can't believe you would support actions that would allow potential criminal activity to go on unthwarted while we just sit idle like a bunch of silent sheeple.
Remember a thread a few weeks ago about a kid scamming someone who bought a 65 Mantle for $800? Our collective actions here and notifications resulted in eBay taking action against the seller and the kid's father making attempts at restitution for all the buyers he stole from. Without this board, that kid might still be scamming unsuspecting buyers.
Take your head out of the ground and look around you. It is our responsibility to prevent criminals from stealing from us. We are the line in the sand.
I really do think that a hobby message board is the appropriate place for the sharing of such information.
Besides, we here on the board only make up a very small percentage of the market.
I don't have a problem with someone reporting the RESULTS of an e-bay, paypal, or law enforcement investigation, etc, on this board and then inform others of the result so we can all be warned of buying from the seller in the future. For example, if e-bay determines that a seller shilled an auction, then the results of that investigation may be posted here imo.
I guess we can agree to disagree, but I do not think the responsibility lies with us as to inform others as to who is performing fraudelent activity (these are serious changes and need to be handled by trained professionals who are third party, independent and non-biased)...as some of us who post do not always post with the sincerest intentions in mind.
Fake Orr Rookie cards, stealing scans, 1952 Mantles, poor feedback ratings, PRO 10 graded cards, etc, are common-sense types of issues that buyers should educate themselves on before bidding. The personal responsibility lies with the buyer not on a public forum where people can just say what they want---whether true or false.
Have you seen some of the posts and threads recently relating to the negative attacks against others, some of it based on pure jealousy, or just for the fun of it, or for whatever reason. I don't hold many of these posters in high regard so if you want to include me in this category fine...I am no better or worse than others but again, I agree with PSAs policy on this issue.
Silver Coins
e-bay ID: grilloj39
e-mail: grilloj39@gmail.com
<< <i>If someone's suspicions are off-base, it is usually pointed out pretty quickly here by a better informed or more experienced collector/dealer and the issue gets dropped. 95% of the time, this system works very well in my opinion. Our collective actions have been a safety net for many people when diving into a potentially dubious contract with an online seller. >>
Con
Very well put. Even if an ebayer were unjustly accused of a wrong doing, as Vargha has stated, it would probably only reach an infinitesimal amount of people. AND, word of the mistake would spread without a deleterious effect on that individual. BUT, on the other hand, this very small group of people by virtue of stopping even one ebayer from operating, affects a very LARGE ebay population from being potentially scammed.
Mike
Vargha, your subtleness cracks me up
CU turns its lonely eyes to you
What's the you say, Mrs Robinson
Vargha bucks have left and gone away?
hey hey hey
hey hey hey
<< <i>The personal responsibility lies with the buyer not on a public forum where people can just say what they want---whether true or false. >>
Grillo
I couldn't disagree with you more on this issue - there is a cooperative collective buyer with respect to this forum. That's where some of the value is placed, IMO. We have fun, we sometimes entertain, we sometimes argue, we sometimes infuriate, and most importantly we enhance the shared experiences of our pursuit.
In an open forum of this type, it is not our job to advocate for those whose interests are not shared by the majority. We debate openly. If an accusation is determined to be without merit, the group learns of it. How does this affect the livelihood of an individual? IMO, this is more about freedom of expression than the hurt feelings of a few members.
MIke
My guess would be the recent Mint State situation. But what do I know?
I don't have a problem with someone reporting the RESULTS of an e-bay, paypal, or law enforcement investigation, etc, on this board and then inform others of the result so we can all be warned of buying from the seller in the future. For example, if e-bay determines that a seller shilled an auction, then the results of that investigation may be posted here imo.
I guess we can agree to disagree, but I do not think the responsibility lies with us as to inform others as to who is performing fraudelent activity (these are serious changes and need to be handled by trained professionals who are third party, independent and non-biased)...as some of us who post do not always post with the sincerest intentions in mind.
Fake Orr Rookie cards, stealing scans, 1952 Mantles, poor feedback ratings, PRO 10 graded cards, etc, are common-sense types of issues that buyers should educate themselves on before bidding. The personal responsibility lies with the buyer not on a public forum where people can just say what they want---whether true or false.
Have you seen some of the posts and threads recently relating to the negative attacks against others, some of it based on pure jealousy, or just for the fun of it, or for whatever reason. I don't hold many of these posters in high regard so if you want to include me in this category fine...I am no better or worse than others but again, I agree with PSAs policy on this issue.
Grillo;
I agree that we do not want to ruin the livelihood of honest dealers. And from the myriad posts that I have read, this is not happening. First, honest dealers will have someone on the board come to their defense very quickly (i.e., recent threads about Mickey's and Mike Wheat). Second, we are a small percentage overall and if our eBay alerts do not result in any action on their part, then the collecting community at large is unaware of any erroneuous efforts and the seller reamins largely unharmed. On the other hand, when eBay does take action, then we have saved the collecting community from being taken by criminal activity.
Yes, there are a few personally-biased, vitriolic rants on these boards that do defame otherwise law-abiding hobbyists. But, I think we can agree that it is a small percentage and the vast majority of posts regarding PRO, trim jobs, shilling, doctors, stolen scans, etc. far outnumbers these fringe attacks. Unfortunately, those with the most venom tend to be the most noticed despite their credibility.
It sounds like you are not aware that eBay and the FBI will not publicize (via email) the results of a tip they receive, So, there is nothing to post here in that regard. The only way we are aware that action has been taken is when the item for auction has been ceased unexpectedly. And when that happens it is almost always posted here.
You also suggest that buyers "educate themselves". Good point. Don't you think reading these boards and the experiences of a multitude of collectors constitutes educating themselves? Posters like mikeschmidt, hammeringhank, scott jeanblanc, 67standup, and packcollector are invaluable sources of knowledge that cannot be found through avenues other than this forum. Where else do you recommend they receive an education? Especially online?
I don't want to villify honest people any more than you. But I find the risk is small, yet the upside great to inform our fellow collectors about looming criminals they may fall prey too. This is why I disagree with Joe's plea. (I also find it terribly vague and blanketing. I appreciate a clarification on his part.)
Along with freedom of speech comes responsibility. You are free to go into a crowded theater and yell fire, but there had better be a fire. If you see something that bothers you on Ebay then turn it in to Ebay, but think long and hard before screaming fire by posting damaging words on here because you are responsible for them. Are you 100% certain that you are right? Is it such an important issue to you that you are willing to take responsibility for the damage your words have done if it turns out to be a false alarm?
GO MARLINS! Home of the best fans in baseball!!
I think "we" are mature enough to NOT go on a "witch hunt" without formulating our own opinion. Just because "Joe" says "Bill" is a crook and trimmer, does not mean I will take Joes word to heart.
Eggs were bad for you at one point.
hojo;
I cannot speak for others, but I ALWAYS report to eBay prior to posting here. After all, that is the best way to see that criminal action is stopped. But, by posting here, you can alert others to suspicious avtivity. It amounts to no more and no less than that. And as stated in another post, yelling fire in a theater is in no way comparable to raising red flags on this board.
Your viewpoint is more analagous to seeing a man in black with a nylon on his head stalking your neighbor's house, but not reporting it to the police because you didn't actually see him carry the TV out the back door. After all, he may have been a door-to-door salesman peddling panty hose in an unusual manner.
The vigilance on this board is to be commended. Many bidders have been spared embarassment, victimization, and disillusionment with this hobby. I myself am included in this vast group. How many honest sellers have had the scarlet letter hung on their neck for all to see causing irreparable damage to their reputation resulting in an inability to sell on eBay ever again?
Just a quick note:
If I did not make my point clear enough, then I apologize.
Of course, it is up to collectors to help each other out by providing information - even when that involves exposing fraudulent activity...but the intent of my post was not to ignore such bad activity or to discourage discussing it - the point is that I suggest, for the sake of all users, to be prudent and careful about what you say and what you post.
If a user is wrong about some alleged activity, there is a possibility that you have just opened yourself up to legal expsoure - assuming the subject of the accusation would like to pursue it. I am merely trying to warn those who may not be aware of just how serious these accusations are and just how much they may be making themselves a target for legal liability.
These are merely suggestions but I urge you to be careful - some people who post do not realize that you cannot post whatever you want (assuming there is some damaging/unfounded content within the posts) without potentially suffering major consequences.
The point of the post was just to make sure the users fully understand the potential result of their actions.
Take care,
Joe Orlando
PSA President
CEO, Collectors Universe, Inc.
Thank you for clarifying your statement. I am encouraged that you did not intend to quash legitimate efforts to thwart criminal activity. As you wrote, prudence is the key. If all board members are prudent, discreet and objective when making claims of alleged criminal activity, then we have nothing to fear in terms of legal retribution.
You should encourage all board members to file online alerts in all cases, and individuals who cannot restrain themselves to objective posts, should be contacted privately and warned accordingly. Our efforts are not intended to make PSA liable for any slanderous activity, but to provide collectors with a better and safer hobby experience.
Thanks for taking the time to make your intentions clear.
I am sorry too. Sorry you had make an obvious point TWICE.
Must be a tough job having every word you take the time to write be meticulously examined for an
angle that the perpetually offended can take offense from.
While there is some good detective work done on these boards, we also have our share of Goobers who
yell "citizens' arrest" without thought and publicly.
I know you were just trying to warn that particular group because they will the ones selling off there
Barry Bonds game used jock strap cards to pay for their defense.
Botton line is you are not anonymous to PSA, they have you IP. What you say about someone is not just
idle text. It can and will be used against you in a court of law.
You better be DARN sure.
Loves me some shiny!
<< <i>Joe,
I am sorry too. Sorry you had make an obvious point TWICE.
Must be a tough job having every word you take the time to write be meticulously examined for an
angle that the perpetually offended can take offense from.
While there is some good detective work done on these boards, we also have our share of Goobers who
yell "citizens' arrest" without thought and publicly.
I know you were just trying to warn that particular group because they will the ones selling off there
Barry Bonds game used jock strap cards to pay for their defense.
Botton line is you are not anonymous to PSA, they have you IP. What you say about someone is not just
idle text. It can and will be used against you in a court of law.
You better be DARN sure. >>
Carew...... I was always told if you dont understand something ask. Im sorry you had post a statement puffing out your chest stating that you understood exactly what was said the first time. While the rest of us "morons" stood around going "huh"?
When you get on your high horse do you mount from the left of the horse or the right? Or are you just always on it?
Maybe you can ask Joe if he needs his shoes shined, or his car washed.
My eBay Store
BigCrumbs! I made over $250 last year!
I reread the conditions for membership on the boards and as I have posted earlier, the company "disclaimed" corporate liability and placed it on the author - where it belongs - if someone feels wronged by an individual on these boards, they usually come forth and state their case - the person making improper or what results in false allegations will apologize. Plain and simple. There is little damage done here - there are 15K total registered of which usually 1% are logged in at any time and that is across the board - coins, open forum etc. - the odds of someone truly being victimized here by virtue of their ebay activities is very miniscule.
I hate to see this get out of hand - but, I don't like my intelligence insulted either.
Mike
No one should feel intimidated by my opinion unless you think I am speaking to you.
Some of you clearly feel I am.
Loves me some shiny!
There are a few words that describe this type of "person". One of them is someone on a "High Horse" looking down at the "peasants". You know someone that thinks they are "better" or of higher class then others.
At least that is the way your post came across to me. If there was some other "meaning" I did not see it and I do not mind eating crow when proven incorrect in my assumptions.
<< <i>At least that is the way your post came across to me >>
Carew
I gotta say that's how I read it too.
<< <i>You better be DARN sure. >>
That was an admonition.
Mike
<< <i>
Botton line is you are not anonymous to PSA, they have you IP. What you say about someone is not just
idle text. It can and will be used against you in a court of law.
You better be DARN sure. >>
Carew's modified Miranda. Well done, sir.