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wildcat05

nice business

mikeschmidt

Jim:

We all have similar stories. Looking for a bargain - sometimes we strike gold, sometimes we get burned. Especially on high-grade vintage raw cards - it is exceptionally difficult to find vintage raw in PSA 8 or better condition. Some dealers are better than others - but the bottom line is that you should build your knowledge base and move from there.

Fifteen years ago in this hobby - few dealers or collectors had any consistent idea of what the differences between GEM, MINT, NM/MT, NM, EX/MT, etc. should be. Grading has standardized that somewhat - but raw vintage 6s and 7s are usually VERY NICE cards.

We all love being on the receiving end of vintage raw cards that end up in high grade holders. But the predominant question in your mind should always be "Why is the dealer leaving money on the table?" If you do find someone who has exceptional vintage raw cards - expect to pay graded card prices for them.

Kid4hof03

You made the statement that you "were quite satisfied with your purchases" before you had them graded. Now that they've been graded you feel like "you've been taken to the cleaners." I don't think that this is fair on your part. I realize that we have all bought cards advertised as a certain grade and then received them and disagreed completely. This seems that you liked the cards until they were graded. So really, it's not that Polo Grounds standard was lower than yours, but that yours and Polo Grounds were lower than PSA's.

Now you know, if looking for PSA 8's you can't depend on Polo Grounds Nm/Mt raw grade, but I don't think it's fair to be dissatisfied now when you initially agreed with the cards grade.

wildcat05

nice set

fsjeter

I agree with kid4hof03. Grading is too subjective to rely on the view of one person without seeing the card for yourself. These forums are full of posts on both sides of the issue where collectors sent in a card they thought would grade a 5 and it came back a 7 or vice versa. The only person that truly knows for sure what a card will grade is the person at PSA that slabs it. Other than that its pure speculation (although some of us are better than others at determining the grade).

Scott

qualitycards

Also keep in mind that grading standards differ from grading company to grading company, let alone from ungraded dealer inventory.
PSA can garde a card NM w/ an oc qualifier, while another grading company may knock it down to EX, and then there are grading companies (like PRO) w/ looser standards that may grade it at MINT (w/ the logic ya gotta keep the customer happy). So when you
purchase a raw card, use your judgement if you are satisfied, does it meet your criteria for the grade? I've seen ungraded vintage cards on eBay listed like "strong EX+ condition, except for paper loss on the back" - In PSA terms the card would probably grade a PSA-1, but no buyer would be "taken" considering the dealer explained the condition of the card. And the seller is not a PSA representative or supporter, just a card seller using his own judgement. ...jay

Griffins

Also keep in mind that I don't know ANYONE that was not disappointed with their first submission. With raw cards you have to base it on your feeling when you get the package- most of the time they look good, but occasionally I get the "what the %^$! feeling. Grading is subjective, both for the dealer, collector and grading company.
Were the cards priced at graded levels? I try and pay the price for 2 grades lower that what I think it will slab at, just to be safe.
I talked to Wayne Varner about this for a while once. He said that he can never guarantee a grade, but they will always guarantee that the card WILL grade. Sounded like a fair policy to me.

MorrellMan

Jim - being that professional grading is subjective (sorry for the platitude), I agree with those above who point out that a dealer's grade is not the same as a grading service's grade. That being said, my experience has been that 6s, 7s and 8s is a good return on raw NRMt cards bought a few years back. Who knows what went wrong with the 5s? How long have these cards been in your possesion? I pretty much built my raw '57 BB set from Polo Grounds "EX+" inventory, and I found them to fit nicely into a raw exmt set. Chances are they would mostly grade 5s and 6s, so I'm happy with that. I do recall purchasing a NRMt card from Ira and deciding I was better off going with EX+. I can certainly understand your frustration - try to remember you were happy with these cards before you ventured out to get a third party to affirm your judgement.

scottsusor

Bill (owner of Polo Grounds) is a wonderful guy -- nothing but good things to say about him and his company. However, as is the case with most dealers selling raw cards, Bill is not going to grade his cards with anything other than naked eye -- the way it was in the "old days" before the concept of 10x (or greater) magnification came along to determine a card's "official" grade. I also have bought quite a few cards from Bill, and paid some pretty heavy coin for those cards. Even to MY naked eye, the cards appear MT, NMMT, NM, etc. But when put under magnification, a MT card will turn out to be a NM card, a NMMT card will turn out to be a EXMT card, etc. etc.

I don't blame Bill, nor do I blame any raw dealer for this type of thing. Since the inception of professional card grading, there are obviously two grading standards existing simulaneously in the hobby of card collecting: (1) the professional standard, and (2) the amateur standard. The two should never be confused and one should never assume that the professional standard is being used anywhere other than by professional grading companies.

In fact, the level of NMMT (i.e. PSA 8) is probably the most contrived standard ever known. PSA's NMMT means that a card must have a minimum of 2 MINT corners. But when the amateur grader/dealer/hobbyist uses the term NMMT, he most probably means that all 4 corners of the card are NMMT (i.e. PSA 7 with very slight touches on all 4 corners). This is neither right nor wrong -- its just the way it is -- and its the way it was for the 40+ years prior to the advent of professional grading. Some of you who only came into the hobby of card collecting in the last 10-15 years might be surprised to know that -- for many years -- standard card grades were MINT, EXCELLENT/MINT, EXCELLENT, VERY GOOD, GOOD, FAIR, and POOR. And centering, unless horribly off, was never even an issue at all.

Scott

Mantlefan

I too have had many dealings with Bill and I have found him to be an honest guy. Some cards that he sold me as Mint I didn't like and I returned to him with a prompt refund. His "Mint" cards tend to get PSA 7's or 8's on submission. They were beautiful cards, but on 10x magnification, little things showed up. If I was building a raw set, I would definitely buy his cards. For PSA submission, look elsewhere.

Lothar52

i only buy raw vintage when i dont CARE about the grade it gets...its got the centering I want and im realy getting it graded just so that it fits into my set (ie either all cards are graded or all are raw--pet peeve of mine...i also eat one thing at a time at the dinner table and never sample diff things at the asme time).......i buy PSA online and have a 56 set minus 2 checklists and buying PSA assures me the cards will not be creased (usually) with grade 6 and up (5's are 50/50). If reselling the cards in PSA holders was not more profitable ...id bust them all out after i got them!! Buy the card not the holder.

REMEMBER....but the card....NO THE HOLDER

Loth

Lothar52

what is bill's website??

mariner

Ira Hirshhorn used to be Bill's partner and now does his own raw business just like Bill at Polo Grounds. They are really the only two left that seem to heavily advertise raw vintage in SCD. Their raw prices seem to have gotten to the SMR level without the grades. I used to buy many cards from both of them but I stopped several years ago. They are both fine dealers but I just felt that a number of times they overgraded the raw cards I bought and when their prices started mirroring graded cards, I just quit buying. When I buy raw now, it is at shows when I can examine them myself before purchase.

scottsusor

I've also bought raw cards from Ira and have found him to be a little more accurate on his higher grades and a little more reasonably priced. However, what I said about Bill also applies to Ira concerning grades rendered via the naked eye.

I too have noticed that this pair is really the "Last of the Mohicans" as far as regularly advertising raw vintage singles in Sports Collectors Digest. Bill has an ad in every issue and Ira's ads run about once a month. I guess they've had to elevate their card prices to pay for the advertising space. SCD has to be on life support at this point.

Scott

coach30

It has been my experience with dealers that sell both graded and ungraded cards like Polo Grounds that their graded cards rarely grade as high as advertised. Since they are grading cards they submit the ones they feel will grade mint or nm/mt and sell the others raw. They are just as aware of the PSA stumbling blocks, snow in the background, centering, printing defects so they don't waste the money grading a card that will come back with a qualifier or low grade. These cards to the naked eye often appear to be a higher grade than they will garner with PSA. All their cards are nice but to grade most will be a disappointment. I always have felt that to buy cards sight unseen to eventually grade is a bad idea.

hojodojonono

Why do dealer's grading standards have to match PSA's standards? Isn't PSA the strictest coin graders, taking 5 minutes to look at the cards at all angles under electron microscopes using UV lights and all the latest forensic gadgets. There's a dozen other grading companies to send cards to that will grade them different, and some will agree with the dealers grading. Why is it a crime for dealers not to match up with your grading company of choice? If you send the cards to other companies they might be just fine.