Trimmed Cards

envoy98

Since we were on the topic of trimmed cards, and the thread was apprently moved (WHY?),
I decided to do a little "lunch -time research".

I happened upon this article and thought it was kind of...shall we say... amusing.

Draw your own conclusions, I would love to hear your thoughts.

Disclaimer: I will concede the sight is bad, the wording is poor, but still kind of interesting.


Main Article (Lame) -Read the "Conclusion" at the bottom of the page.

Pics of "Trimmed" Cards


I found it interesting that the "examples" of trimmed cards were all PSA and he then goes on a huge support rant for BGS.

elway65

Ditto. Where did the "Trimmed cards" article go and why was it removed? I poured my morning cup of coffee and thought, "Cool, an interesting article about something that's, sadly, very relevant in today's card collecting market." And "POOF!" It's gone.

pandrews

Big Brother is hard at work! Lets remove all this talk about trimmed cards.. card trimming doesnt exist..

schr1st

PSA is probably afraid that the people mentioned will threaten to sue them. I doubt it would do much good, since PSA isn't responsible for it's message board members comments, nor do they have to agree or disagree with them. Fortunatly we talk about Burge, Koening (sp?) and all of the rest of the trimmers all the time over on the Beckett Messageboards with little interference (and an occasional threat from one of the trimmers).

envoy98

hey schr1st, are you "Sean C." over on the BGS boards? I noticed the same avatar in your sig. Put 2+2 together and thought it might be you.

You have a good point on the people being named. That might be why they pulled it. I was in the middle of replying when I hit "reply" to post it was gone. Oh well.

TheRoach

Yup, that's him.



TheRoach

pick6investments

I am flying to chicago june 25th for sportsfest and will see all these guys submitting 100's of cards and I wll again as usual watch them make tens of thousands of dollars on trimmed stuff while I struggle to make a living straight up! This is somehting that could be stopped by the grading companys

envoy98

Thanks Roach

envoy98

I wonder if some of these very people are the same guys I saw in KC buying up singles buy the dozens. They were rolling small suitcases around (think carry-on luggage) the top half was $$$ the bottom was cards they had bought. They set up tables but didn't set up, they just rolled through and bought. And most of them wanted to buy at 30-40% max! Later I did see a couple of these guys sitting at the GAI booth chit-chatting with Sean and Steve. I don't know if they were getting stuff graded or not, and I won't speculate as to their intentions or integrity. It certainly was a different environment than the local shows I do.

goodriddance189

i would really like to hear the story about Joe Tuttle (jtcards). i've bought a few Kellogg's Bretts from him, and all have been graded accurately. and by all accounts, he is one of the top dealers in the country (i've heard this from hobby heavyweights like Davalillo and others)

envoy98

I don't know anything about him (jtcards), other than I've bought a few cards from him. I don't recall what though. maybe someone else can let us know the scoop.

I would think though it is probably best if we keep the specific names out of this thread since the last thread was removed. It is possible that isn't why it was removed...but I think it's a safe assumption.

KallMaloneSay

The best method for buying graded stuff is to assume that all of it is trimmed and choose your bidding price accordingly. You will get a nice looking card and with the assumption already there, then you don't have to lose any sleep on the card's history. It's very easy to determine who the trimmers are by typing in BGS 9.5 or PSA 10 and see the same exact dealers who have 20 or more auctions per week with all the high dollar stuff in Gem Mint. On the same token, if there is a BGS 9.5 that is being sold by a random ebayer, odds are that he bought it trimmed from one of the major trimmers anyways.

I'd say we're not too far away from having to assume that all graded are trimmed, mainly in modern, but there should certainly be a little skepticism in the vintage market also, just ask the guys on the network 54 boards. The grading companies had a chance to calm everyone down by addressing the issue, instead they just ignored it and hoped it would all go away. BGS first blew their chance to keep things in order by banning Kevin Burge from grading after the BGS 9 Prior SP Authentic that magically became a BGS 10 with a slightly shorter elbow when it became a 10. I know they had hundreds of calls and questions about that card in particular, but just played dumb and refused to lay down any kind of punishment to Burge for exposing himself as well as BGS as a company that doesn't care if you trim cards as long as you do it relatively well.

PSA then had a chance to save face for themselves as well as the entire grading industry when Joe Orlando put out his little "hello, ho ya'll doing?" post a month or two ago. When some of us asked him to address the issue of both Burge and Koenig coming back to PSA with their trimmed PSA 10's, he just turned his back. Word is getting out more and more, it will be interesting to see where the grading industry is in a few years as well as all of the beloved graded cards in our collections.
Jason

schr1st

As Roach mentioned, that is indeed me. I tend to talk more there and listen here (save for the occasional slap fight with Joe or MW). Sure there are a lot of kids who post there, but sometimes the "kids" are more intelligent than the "adults". The one nice thing about their boards is that unless you make off-color comments about a person or situation, or try spamming the boards, more likely than not the post will stay. There are a few of us over there that regularly bash BGS and Beckett to lenghts and degrees that would get a person banned in a heartbeat here.



<< <i>hey schr1st, are you "Sean C." over on the BGS boards? I noticed the same avatar in your sig. Put 2+2 together and thought it might be you.

You have a good point on the people being named. That might be why they pulled it. I was in the middle of replying when I hit "reply" to post it was gone. Oh well. >>

mexisar

hey goodriddance189

the person(don't remember since the thread got deleted)
connected several other ebay id's to him
like this one platinumpowerseller,
if that account is truly his(same city), its another sad revelation

ctsoxfan

Well said, Jason. Without rehashing, or naming names, it is tough to watch these same few guys run rampant over the modern graded market with their tactics, while honest collectors and dealers suffer. I just hope that the whole graded market doesn't burst one day when someone finally has the guts to expose one, or all, of these guys.

You are right also, Sean. I have personally said negative things about the Beckett boards here (mainly because of all of the kids rambling, and the ridiculous signatures that clutter that board to the point of unreadability). But, I do still browse it every few days or so, or when someone directs me to an interesting thread there, because sometimes there are very on-point discussions taking place there, and rarely is a thread zapped. I was disappointed here to see all of the threads and references removed regarding a major Ebay seller and dealer who was caught redhanded shilling his own auctions. (I can't name him or else he will sue me ... )

WinPitcher

Im still waiting for HIM to come back here and tell us the whole story, isnt that what he promised? Id name his name but i too prefer to not have legal cases pending.....;-0)))

envoy98

Y'know, I've always collected off and on for the last 6 or 7 years after a 7 year hiatus. I really got excited again though when I started going to the local shows. Now, here it is less than a year later and I find myself getting more and more cynical about the state of the hobby as each day passes. I used to buy raw cards off ebay and have had some good luck. I have actually gotten some 9.5/10's. Then with all the over-stating of condition (A gem mt for sure - comes back a 7/8) I started just buying graded. (PSA & BGS only) Now with all the revelations, at least revelations to me, the more I find myself wanting to pack it up and go away. I am sure my fiancee wouldn't mind.

I guess I wonder what we can do? Here we are, a group of some well educated, well intentioned people sitting on the message boards of the very companies we are trying to "Do-good" and yet we make up less than 1% of their submission base. Sure, we can all sit and post all day long about it but what can really be done? Do the companies care? Do we really care? I know I do, but I have a bit of a helpless feeling.

I am afraid that one day I am going to buy a card from the local card shop or a local collector, put it on my table and have some other dealer/collector purchase it and try to have it slabbed, only to have it come back trimmed. Then, with all my graded cards on my table will the suspicion be that I sold it knowing it was trimmed? Or did I sell it because nobody would slab it and now I'm trying to recoup my money? My feeling is, though I would never trim a card, or sell a known trim or counterfeit, wouldn't it be better to get out and have a good reputation then to potentially have some schlep pull a fast one on you and then your rep is tainted? Even if you refund the guys money the speculation will still be there. I also have bought some graded cards from some of these people that have been named on these and other boards. I don't remember which ones but the point is, if they did trim that particular card, what do I do when someone cracks it and resubmits to some other company? (I have several dealer friends that do this, they despise one or the other)

I realize whenever there is a chance for big profits to be made the criminal minds work overtime and I realize the card companies can't police every Logo-Patch auction to determine if it's real or not. I know I've emailed high-bidders and let them know about fake Gretzky/Jordan RC's and fake patches but what else can we do? This is so frustrating...

Sorry for the rant, this just gets me more and more each day. Especially after reading Kall's post, unfortunately....he's right on.

NickM

This line from his site give me great confidence that he knows what he's talking about:

The card on the right hand side is smaller in the case then the one on the right.

Ok. Whatever you say.

Nick

Stone193

<< <i>Now with all the revelations, at least revelations to me, the more I find myself wanting to pack it up and go away. >>


Envoy
Anything I would say would sound trite at this time other than I have rethought my collecting habits to insure that I am enjoying what I do. I am in the process of eliminating anything that creates stress or unhappiness - and there's still plenty to do. I'm with you - been collecting long enuff to have just about one of everything happen to me! I enjoy your posts - for me every day is a new one.
Mike

joker73

This may be why "collector grade" cards (PSA 4-6) end up being the best long-term bet in the end. Many others on here have argued about their other merits (affordability, they can still be eye appealing, etc.), but who's going to bother trimming a Mantle card so it goes from a 4 to a 5 (unless it's a '52)? The more companies turn a blind eye to the problem, the more questions will surround a growing portion of the graded cards in circulation. I just can't see that level of skepticism existing with regard to mid-grade vintage cards ...

Aknot

Solution to the problem is when PSA grades they put a small explosive device on the holder. That way if it is crack to be altered/resubmitted it blows up destroying the card. Or is that a little to harsh? Yeah then you would have people "Throwing" PSA 5s at one another hoping they will crack and explode on contact..... Can you imagine a show.... Pow....bam....boom..... heheehehhee (sorry)