The other side of the burning question

Fuzz

I think we all understand everyone's position on the generic question of shill bidding in an auction format. It has been covered. Over and over and over and over. But I have never seen the other side of the question addressed and it is at least a different topic.
How do you feel about when two bidders get together on a group of cards or lots they need/want and decide that they will only bid certain lots, not against each other, to obtain the items for less than they would have otherwise cost?
I have been around long enough to know that this happens and happens frequently.
Any thoughts?
Fuzz

ctsoxfan

While that may happen, the Ebay marketplace is so huge that there is virtually no way that all of the people interested in a specific item could engage in collusion. A few can try, but it is doubtful it would work.

goodriddance189

i have done this before. but i will only do it if i feel that my max bid will have no chance of winning. take for example a 1968 Plante PSA 8. if there is another collector chasing it who tells me that his max bid will be $200, and i was planning on bidding no more than $150, i will refrain from bidding. why? because i already know i am not going to win it, and placing a hopeless max bid will do nothing but cost the other guy more money.

highend

with the sets i collect itry to become familiar with the other guys on the registry, especially those who are very close to completion. if i see a card that i know someone (very close to completion) needs i won't even bother bidding.
why run the auction up if you know the other guy will outbid you, if you need 100 cards and he needs 20 who is prepared to pay more? who is likely to pay way above what you are prepared to spend? when i bid, i bid to expecting to win and if i'm outbid at the price i'm willing to pay so be it.

carew4me

happened often with a group of about 4 Carew colelctors.

We were killing each other in the early days so we worked together.
Saved big $$$.

murcerfan

It's the only way to keep shill bidding dealers from ruining our hobby.


However, my legal team down at Lynch and Burnham is still reviewing my response
.
.
......... for possible editing, of course.

interchanges

When I was building the Wilson Frank set, Murcerfan, Griffins, 1954, 707, and D.Studebkr often kept in contact with each other, exchanged emails so we didn't do just that. (bid each other up).
Consequently we help each other out when we upgrade.

Same thing with the T205 set I collect, about five of us that collect the same grade arrange who's going for what (to a certain degree, sometimes you both want it.) as well as going in on bigger Mastro lots.
It really is helpful!

And we can all thank the C.U. set registry board!!

(ass-kisser........ no! Seriously!)

murcerfan

Great.

You had to go and name names

Now my legal bill is gonna be doubled

Who the heck is this Frank Wilson guy I keep hearing about ?

cmcclelland

1420sports

Worrying about getting shilled is a waste of time. If you bid your max amount right away, then you leave yourself open to possibly winning the card at that amount.

Wasn't that the intention?

Someone just got caught doing it most likely, and it appears to be blatantly obvious.

Sue me.

peterredshoes

I think I can safely say, with the benefit of experience and without concern of tampering, that if the pool of bidders is small enough for collusion to be made easy that a smart, cagey buyer can render collusion unnecessary provided that supply over long periods of time exceeds demand. Fortunately there are many niche card markets for which this a safe assumption, such as high-grade '80's graded semistar cards.

Peter G.

Vargha

Sue me.

No , no -- sue me first!

1954

It happens all the time. It only hurts the seller if you know everyone that collects that item that you are wanting to bid on. I know sometimes this is done when the lot has many cards from a set and the cost could get out of hand. So all goes in together and splits it up. I don't think it is wrong. Great question.


1954

jrdolan

** technical glitch **

jrdolan

Two collectors agreeing not to bid each other up on a particular card may hurt the seller if no one else is interested in bidding. But there is absolutely no way to stop it, short of blocking suspect bidders (which will result in an even lower final bid). If it's a concern, just set a reserve or minimum bid that you can live with.

ZodiacMindwarp

I realize it is a matter of semantics but the definition of collusion involves activities that are illegal and/or evil. Reaching an agreement with other bidders to keep expenses down is neither. Shill bidding, on the other hand, is taking more money from the buyer than he should have paid because his bid is increased by a disingenuous bidder. The net result is the same as stealing which is illegal.

On a similar note, if one bidder decides to bid up a certain card to prevent a decrease in value, but is willing to pay if he or she wins the auction, there is nothing evil or illegal about that activity. There was talk on these boards about someone who was bidding up, and winning, many Rickey Henderson rookies. He created a new value for the card because no one could win it under a certain price. I don't know if he acheived what he desired, or if the effect was long term, but so long as he paid for the auctions he won, he did not do anything wrong (in my opinion).

thejam

however, some of the collaborators (to keep prices down) set up other accounts (in other cities) to out-bid the longest straw

grilloj39

Although off topic, I won't bid on items that I see some board members have bidded on....for example, I saw a PSA 9 1973 Dryden card that another PSA board forum member had bidded on the other day...I won't get into a bidding war with anyone on this forum. We do too much in trying to help each other out in filling our sets to mess someone up on a single card.

koby

I don't like bidding against friends and associates either. Many times, however, the initial bids are placed just for purposes of following an auction, rather than for real intent to win the auction. I don't think it necessary to refrain form bidding unless your friend has placed a legitimate bid at a legitimate level.

pc

actually ebay considers NOT bidding according to Dave's terms
bid collusion and is punishable by public castration. this does not
apply to BW since the HGH did away with his balls.

jrdolan

Whatever we may think of one friend not bidding up another, it can't have much overall impact. eBay is just too huge. As Uncle Joe says, the members of these boards are only 1% of all PSA collectors. Sure, there may be individual auctions where the bidding is dominated by a couple guys who are well aware of what the other is up to, but how small a drop in the bucket is that in the big scheme of things? If I see a friend of mine is hot after a card that I know is key to one of his sets, I lay off. Until eBay has a policy that we MUST bid and bid aggressively on every card we see on our want list.

acowa

I usually bid on all of the tough cards from the sets that I collect (whether I have them already or not). Usually, my bids are token bids and I don't expect to win. If a fellow collector emails on a card that I already have, I will let them buy the card at my bid (assuming that I win). There's no sense in running up the prices on fellow collectors just for sport.

Regards,


Alan