1934 Heavy Motto 25c to be recognized by PCGS

WashqrtrsRme

This may be of interest to those of you who are Washington quarter collectors...
I have been in communication with David Hall over the last few months, trying to plead my case for recognition of the 1934 Heavy Motto quarter as a separate-identity, variety coin. I had sent David detailed information, with my explanation as to why I felt this coin should should be given its own, separate identity.

About 2 months ago, after having written to David about this, he replied to me and said, and I quote: "Tom, Thanks for the email. I'll check it out and we'll probably add the variety. I note that the Redbook only lists two varieties (not counting the double die.) Any clue as to why?" I then replied to David, giving him more detailed information on the subject with answers to his questions.

Yesterday afternoon I received emails from both David Hall and BJ Searls. BJ wrote to me first and said she wanted to let me know that PCGS has just announced that the 1934 Heavy Motto coin will be given it's own, separate identity, i.e. cert. no. PCGS will now begin recognizing this coin as a stand-alone variety, just like they currently do with the Light Motto coin. BJ was not sure exactly how soon we will begin seeing the designation for the Heavy Motto coins, but suffice to say it is going to happen. David Hall then sent me a note thanking me for my patience regarding this matter.

If you know you already have a certified, 1934 Heavy Motto quarter, you'll eventually be able to send it back to PCGS and have it reholdered with the Heavy Motto designation noted on the insert, once PCGS does begin recognizing it. I do not know how PCGS intends on handling the cost of having this done for collectors, so I don't want to speculate about that.

I would like to thank David Hall, first and foremost, for taking the time to evaluate this important variety coin with his staff, concluding to add this variety coin to the variety set in the Registry and it's importance. I also wish to thank BJ Searls for taking time to kindly inform me of PCGS's decision on this matter. I'm really glad to know PCGS evaluated and determined this to be a worthy variety coin. PCGS took the time to look into this matter, which tells me they are concerned about what their customers have to say, the collectors. I really believe that the Heavy Motto coin is as important variety coin as much as any other PCGS-recognized variety in the Washington quarter set, and most deserving of it's own, separate indentity. Thank you PCGS!

Tom Schiera

wondercoin

Tom: Good work. Next up - the 1950 S/D Roosie.

Wondercoin

Typetone

Tom:

Congratulations on getting this important variety recognized.

Greg

WashqrtrsRme

Thank you gentlemen, I appreciate the compliments.

Tom

quattrocoins

Good work, Tom.
Next up - the type "B" reverses!

Colorfulcoins

Wondercoin, you and I have spoken about that S/D Rosy.......THAT would be an uphill climb for anyone given your past inquiries - however, since I have a PCGS MS67FT 1950 dime that I believe is S/D, I'd be MORE than willing to participate in that endeavor! PM me, let's chat and I'd be happy to take it to PCGS on the behalf of the collector base!

wondercoin

Craig: The 34 HM was an uphill climb. I personally suspect the 50s/d dime won't be too much more "heavy" at this point. It's been in the REDBOOK for a long time. Like every other major grading service, PCGS should have recognized it long ago IMHO. I mentioned the 50s/d to PCGS a while ago and I suspect they are doing their "due diligence" on that coin as well.

Wondercoin

cladking

Very cool.

Thanks to all the principals in this.

The Washington set just continues to get bigger and more interesting. Dare I say historic?

Steve27

Congratulations, but I find it interesting that they didn't follow their own process, which dictates a survey of the registry set participants.

dpoole

Tom,

Thanks for your dedication and persistence, and thanks to PCGS.

Now: when do you do the tutorial with pictures about Light Motto, Regular Motto and Heavy Motto?

WashqrtrsRme

David,

You're welcome! Now, as for the tutorial on the three different motto weights...obviously there's much more to tell than this, but here's a brief synopsis on the three different mottos:

Light Motto: Because of dies being hastily prepared for the introduction of the new Washington Quarter design, and after it's approval for production in April of 1932 (coins released to Federal banks in August, 1932), it was discovered that all coins minted in 1932 had a very low-relief motto, i.e. the Light Motto. Breen estimates 1934-P Light Motto quantities to be somewhere around 1/2 million, but personally, I think that number is high.

Medium (or regular) Motto: Found on the vast majority of 1934-P coins, as well as many 1934-D coins. All coins minted in 1935 (Philadelphia, Denver and San Francisco) carry the Medium Motto, exclusively.

Heavy Motto: Found on a very small number of 1934-P coins. Since no mintage figures were kept that made any distinction between motto types, it's purely speculative as to how many exist. My experience has shown that less than 1 in every 40 is likely to be a Heavy Motto coin, for the 1934-P. I have found fewer Heavy Motto coins than I ever have of the Light Motto coins. The 1934-D also carries the Heavy Motto, as well. It would appear that there were many more Denver coins produced with the Heavy Motto than were the Philadelphia coins. This motto type was used exclusively from 1936 on.

Hope that helps.

Tom

Boom

I've been studying the 1934 varieties for quite a while now. Very interesting but totally logical as

well. There is a real sleeper in this group that when officially recognized is of such low mintage it is

right there with the 32-D & S. Advise...grab while you can! Which one is it?

Some people mistakenly advertise some 34s as the Heavy Motto but there is a foolproof way of

telling for sure. How many of you know what this way is? First one that gets it right

without opening a Breen or Wexler book gets a surprise coin from me...Let's go! No fair looking for the

answer. On the honor system-either you know or you don't. John Lawrence is excluded from this

giveaway because we recently talked about it when his pix came out wrong when advertising one

lately! The question is, how can you tell a Heavy Motto, in plain layman English, without doing any

reference hunting! The giveaway lasts till 6:20 CDT. Let's Go!

dpoole

OK, Boom. Who won?

DMWJR

The middle point of the W in "WE" must be above the other two legs.

dpoole

OK. NOW tell us: what are the markers under a 10x loupe on the motto to definitively distinguish Light, Medium and Heavy motto?

DMWJR

Good question. I have all three in PCGS MS66 holders, but haven't looked for any markers on the motto itself.

Bikingnut

I currently have three 34P's, 2 raw and one in a PCGS AU58 holder, and it appears that I have one of each. Here is what I see. The Light Motto is obvious, the motto is very washed out and looks identical to the 32P that I have. The Medium Motto, the letters are very fine or thin and pronounced and look the same as the 35P I have. The Heavy Motto which I have in a PCGS AU 58 holder, the middle point on the W is higher than the two legs. Also the letters are much broader and flatter than the medium motto. The motto also looks like the motto on the 36P and later Washingtons that I have.

Did I get it right?

Cocoinut

Good job, Tom.

Now, watch as the scarcity of the Heavy Motto becomes obvious, and the price skyrockets. Good news for those that already own them; for those who don't - better start cherrypickin'!

Jim

WashqrtrsRme

Thanks, Jim.

Ok, the "guessing game" can now be put to rest. Yes, the easiest way to tell if it's a Heavy Motto coin is by looking at the "W" in "WE". If the middle point of the "W" extends above the outer legs of the "W", then that is the Heavy Motto coin. Also, the lettering is obviously much more bold when compared to the Medium Motto coin. Game over!

I believe that we will eventually see a significantly higher retail value for this coin than for the Light motto coin, once PCGS begins reporting pops. on it and include it in their CU price guide. I am of the opinion that this coin in considerably tougher than the Light Motto coin, which would indicate it to be more valuable than that coin. I guess time will be the best indicator to see if that is correct or not. Personally, I believe that if you collect varieties and don't yet have a Heavy Motto coin yet, you should try to locate a nice one soon and buy it. They won't get any cheaper than they are right now, that I am sure of!

Happy hunting!

Tom Schiera

oreville

I must have hundred of well circulated 1934 and 1934-D quarters. Should I even bother to look or will the distinction between the HM and RM be lost?

I better look at my mint state 1934 and 34-D quarters.

Truly never bothered much with the heavy motto before.

Thanks to you guys for pursuing this interesting variety!!!

wondercoin

"I believe that we will eventually see a significantly higher retail value for this coin than for the Light motto coin, once PCGS begins reporting pops. on it and include it in their CU price guide"

I will play "Santa" - who wants to step up first and trade me their PCGS-MS67 Light Motto this week for a PCGS-MS67 Heavy Motto.

Wondercoin

Boom

Mitch, I just got a lowly PCGS 63 Heavy Motto that of course is not attributed as such, it was a crackout 66 that backfired. One look and you will agree that it is graded incorrectly. I have a PCGS 65

Light Motto and one that is graded, I believe incorrectly from NGC a LM version that I would send you for a second opinion. In fact, I'll send both the HM and the LM. If you agree they are undergraded I'd

like to resubmit them and maybe trade the LM for an equal grade HM or perhaps trade both the LM an HM for that superb HM.We first need to determine the correct grades on these two coins.Remind me to

send you some scans of the very bright-White PCGS 67 1957s and 58s I made that are not at all common as we both know. Who knows, I may even play Santa and give YOU one.One hand washes

the other, ya know! These are NOT your everyday run of the mill heavily toned 67s.

Back to the LM's...talk about a sleeper. Reported to have 500,000 minted using the 32 hub puts it
right there with the 32-D & S. Any idea of the mintage on the Heavy Motto?

WashqrtrsRme

Mitch, apparently from your comment about a 1-for-1 trade, maybe you don't believe the Heavy Motto coin will end up being as good of a coin as is the Light Motto, in terms of rarity and value. I would agree that it is too soon to tell, that is for sure. I have no certainty as to where the Heavy Motto coin will settle at in the pops. or in retail value. I do believe however, given time it will eventually prove to be as good a coin as the Light Motto variety, maybe better, but that is only my opinion. I contend there just are not that many around. I'm not afraid to admit that I could be wrong, however. Let's see where it's at a year from now....should be interesting to see.

I appreciate everyone's comments, thanks!

Tom

wondercoin

Tom: Of course, no one knows with any certainty which coins will end up exceedingly elusive in top grade - who would have guessed ten years ago that the 55(d) quarter in PCGS-MS67 would have still been a pop 0 today! And, while I like the HM coin very much, the light motto is still my personal favorite as the key coin in that trio.

Boom: I agree with you that the LM is a "sleeper" coin, especially in top grade. I am personally only interested in the LM coins in MS67 grade at this particular point, but appreciate for the trade offer. It is my understanding that the HM mintage was multiples of the LM mintage.

Incidently, it is possible most of the LM PCGS-MS67 coins out there came from some rolls of 34 quarters a few years back (possibly even submitted in bulk). When I was assisting Registrycoin with building his All-Time #1 set, I believe he was offered all (3) freshly graded specimens at once from the submitter (at least two, but possibly all three). He put a deal together to get them all, selected the nicest one for his personal collection (which I ended up buying in his set)and sold off the other one or two coins. The only other LM PCGS-MS67 I have ever seen was the toned example Heritage sold off a year or so ago. I believe I know which private collection that coin resides in and, to be sure, it is a lovely coin as well.

Wondercoin

washvarieties

Tom
excellent nice work



WANTED a 1942s double die obverse 1-O-V AU or better


ZAPS COINS
Bob

WashqrtrsRme

Bob: Thanks for the compliment. That means a lot to me, coming from you!

Tom

dpoole

<< <i>It is my understanding that the HM mintage was multiples of the LM mintage. >>



Mitch--that's an important comment! Can you tell me why you believe that to be so?

wondercoin

"Mitch--that's an important comment! Can you tell me why you believe that to be so?"

David: That was just from memory. I believe in my travels, my personal research revealed that. I do not have my Breen Encyclopedia handy. Anyone out there have one handy - I believe Breen also reports the estimated mintage of the HM quarter in his book. 3M comes to mind, but I could be a bit off.

Happy hunting!

Wondercoin

Boom

I stayed up late till the wee hours of the morning researching the rarity of the 34 Heavy Motto,

I copied it and as of now it appears II have misplaced it but this is what I can tell you.

1- The light motto's original mintage was right at 500,000. To put this in perspective one only need look no further than the mintages of the 32-D & S pieces. This die was actually the same hub as the 1932.

2- The medium motto, "Type II"-estimated 28 million coined

3- 1934 Heavy Motto "Type III" estimated 3.4 million coined.

This pretty well sums up which is the rarer of the two from that perspective. The inevitable question
now is, how many of thos originally minted survived in Mint State? While most of the focus was on the

DDO very little attention was given to the first 34's that were made with worn out 32 dies and
considerably less was given to this heavy motto that was made to finish that year's run!

dpoole

That's very helpful, Boom.

Any word as to the mintages at the Phil. Mint vs. the Denver of the varieties? (I hate to make you stay up ANOTHER night! )

Boom

At the beginning of the production year, the mint continued to use the obverse hubs from the 1932 quarters. By 1934, it was well apparent that the light motto "In God We Trust" would not hold up in circulation, and was even very difficult to read on Very Fine specimens, so a mere 500,000 were produced. The Philadelphia mint went on to produce 28,500,000 Medium Motto coins (Motto of 1935) and a mere 3.4 Million Heavy Motto coins at the end of the production year. Very few of these were saved, as the "roll savers" had already put away their uncirculated coins for the year.

1934-D Type II-medium motto-estimated about 1 million coined.(Breen 4274)

1934-D Type II Obvious double punched mint mark ?? (Breen 4275)

1934-D Type III-Heavy Motto-estimated about 2,5 million coined... Does this answer your question D?

dpoole

Wow, Boom. You didn't even need a Jolt Cola for that one!

oreville

boom: Informative stuff! Thanks.

Want more of these kind of posts!!