1856 Flying Eagle cents

tradedollarnut · May 22, 2004 8:58AM

These were hoarded extensively by Beck - when he died in the 1970's, he owned 531 of them. If he hadn't hoarded the coins, would they not have been perceived as much more common? After all, it seems there are plenty of them on the market at all time these days. Did one hoarder change numismatics as we know it?

So.... could Russ actually create enough mystique for those AH 1964's to make them worth something?

northcoin · May 22, 2004 9:19AM

Just got an ad for an 1856 PCGS Proof-64 asking $20,000. Weren't MS-64's going for around $12-14,000 within the last year and I thought the MS were more desirable than the proofs since PCGS has stopped designating MS? Anyone with recent auction reporings on what the market is and has been?

In your opinion is this coin one which is currently either over or fully priced?

Russ · May 22, 2004 9:25AM

<< So.... could Russ actually create enough mystique for those AH 1964's to make them worth something? >>

I damned sure hope so. It's my retirement plan.

Russ, NCNE

Lakesammman · May 22, 2004 9:44AM

TDN:

Are you shorting the 1856 market

It is one of those oddities in numismatics. The demand is high. Lot's of people aspire to own one, just like other common "rare" coins.

I would think that the dispersal of the hoard has been long enough ago for the market to equilibrate and adjust. There certainly seems to be no shortage of the restrike S9's. The other 9 1856 die varieties are much harder to come by, those being the real challenge to find. Alot of the so called MS coins in holders are really the restrike S9's. Nice S3's are still hard to come by and are the coins garnering a large premium.

jdimmick · May 22, 2004 9:50AM

I like the 56 FE, but they do tend to be available for the money, however, many of them are the S-9 proof restrikes". There has been the big ongoing debate on the striking format for several years with many articles written by Snow and other Flyer enthusiasts. I prefer to have the (s-3) format in my key-date collection as it is consider the original MS format "business strike", even though PCGS is no longer designating as such. And yes, I agree that its technically a pattern coin, but its extremely popular and has been considered by many as the key date and a must have for a complete set of Flying Eagles ever since the earliest folders and coin albums were introduced, which has had a lot to do with its popularity and demand today. With the PCGS registry and prior differentiation between Ms format PCGS coin #2013 and Proof Format #2037, I am seeing an increased demand, price realized and intrest in obtaining the MS format #2013 coin, especially with PCGS's position not to holder any additional coins as #2013. PCGS has even stopped re-holdering them #2013 if submitted in the #2013 holder, by changing to #2037. It has been stated by several it may be more correct to state the 56's as original vs restrikes since thier is some questions as to striking characterisitics associated with proof or MS surfaces with some of the varities coming in both formats. As mentioned, I still prefer the S-3 format, to me its like having an 1877 MS indian vs having the 1877 Proof for a circualtion strike set of indians. Same thing can be said for other series like Shield nickels, liberty nickels etc. The sad part is that many coins on the market today are incorrectly holdered and one needs to be informed prior to making the right purchase if your after a specific variety such as and Original S-1 or S-5 Proof or S-3" MS" format etc. Several of the board members here are very knowledgeable about the 56FE striking varities, so if your thinking about a purchase, give them a holler (Lakessamman, Goose3, Ira Stein, and many others).

I like having the 56 FE and consider it a key date as much as any other date that I own.

Jim dimmick

STEWARTBLAYNUMIS · May 22, 2004 10:04AM

Bruce

I met a collector of Indian cents in Philadelphia at the ANA.He was in the construction business.He had with him appproximately a shoe box full of correspondance between Beck and many coin dealers concerning 1856 Flying Eagle cents.He wound up selling the box to Dave Bowers for $100.I was glad they worked it out.

Stewart

What is the difference if you hoard 1856 Flyers,1877 Indians,1909 s VDB cents,1916 D Mercury dimes or 1932 D Quarters ?

haletj · May 23, 2004 1:52AM

I think I've seen PF 64's more in the 15K,16K range. That may have been a few months ago.

<< ... I still prefer the S-3 format, to me its like having an 1877 MS indian vs having the 1877 Proof for a circualtion strike set of indians. Same thing can be said for other series like Shield nickels, liberty nickels etc. The sad part is that many coins on the market today are incorrectly holdered and one needs to be informed prior to making the right purchase... >>

Yeah, I agree, I wanted a circulation strike to go with my circulation strike FE, so I bought an anacs au55. Later found out it was a s-9. (I have a copy of Snow's book now). I love the coin and it'll still match my set so I wasn't mad, but I sure hope that for such circulated grades s-3's don't end up being way more valuable, for that's wat I thought I had. Lots of people keep telling me nah, doesn't matter for circ grades, but I'm already worried at something like jdimmick's comments, or even the price guide which says au 11.5K, ms60 12.5K and pf60 10K. I sure hope mine is worth 12K and not <10K. I wonder if I should sell it and buy more Lincolns (gem 14-d,24-d? or a red ms 1877 Indian?

)

Conder101 · May 23, 2004 2:21AM

Beck wasn't the champion 1856 hoarder though. There was another collector, George W Rice, who amassed 756 of them.

Barry · May 23, 2004 2:52AM

<< What is the difference if you hoard 1856 Flyers,1877 Indians,1909 s VDB cents,1916 D Mercury dimes or 1932 D Quarters ? >>

The difference is the 1856 FE is a pattern. The others aren't.

HalfCents · May 23, 2004 2:56AM

<< The difference is the 1856 FE is a pattern. The others aren't. >>

Amen

wallstreetman · May 23, 2004 3:10AM

<< 

So.... could Russ actually create enough mystique for those AH 1964's to make them worth something?

>>

No, theres too many of em!

Placid · May 23, 2004 3:21AM

I don't think Beck's hoard showed up as part of a pcgs pop report.

Coinosaurus · May 23, 2004 3:32AM

It's an all time classic, like the 1909-SVDB, 1955 doubled die, etc. It will always be a pretty popular coin regardless of mintage figures or hoards. Kinda like the 1794 or 1895 dollars. There is a lot of "foundational value" in such a coin. Such coins will whether most coin market vagaries.

oreville · May 23, 2004 8:06AM

<<<<<<<<<<<<<Such coins will whether most coin market vagaries. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Come again?

Nic · May 23, 2004 11:44AM

I'm a 1st year issue type person and do not consider the 56 flyer as such. I know... I know... a couple of varieties/ formats are "circ. strikes". Perhaps I am prejudiced. I have just never liked this date, believe the coin is a pattern, do not feel the issue is rare, and would prefer a killer cool 1857 for my set. All said IMHO. K

EVillageProwler · May 23, 2004 11:53AM

Come again?

Translation:

The 1856 flyer will survive the vicississitudes of the coin market.

EVP

oreville · May 23, 2004 11:54AM

Nic: You say that now, but give it time. Someday when you read up on how the US Mint personnel actually gave out these 1856 FE cents to citizens on the grounds of the US Mint and the history surrounding the 1856 FE cent you too will change your tune just I have after resisting the allure of the 1856 FE cent for 30 years!

Nic · May 23, 2004 12:01PM

Oreville,
I do believe in never saying never! PM sent. K

JrGMan2004 · May 23, 2004 12:07PM

Yeah, between Russ, Marty and PhillyJoe, they might actually create a shortage!

EVillageProwler · May 23, 2004 12:11PM

Nic,

What's your position on 1836-dated Gobs from the 12/36 issue?

EVP

roadrunner · May 23, 2004 12:14PM

I've never been a fan of "key" dates that are in reality quite common.
Most 19th century coins with 700-1000 pieces known might cost $50 in lower grades and a few hundred in UNC. I guess that's the allure of these oddities. Like Nic, I've never owned one, have never been offered one, and likely may never own one. But you can never say NEVER in coins....except paying $40,000 for a proof Lincoln cent.

roadrunner

Lakesammman · May 23, 2004 1:19PM

I don't know - in spite of all that's been said, I still like the 1856 flyers. I don't stand a chance of ever collecting all 11 but it sure is fun trying! Below, in order, are the S1, S3, S4 and the J184, the later the only "pattern" in the lot....

lordmarcovan · May 23, 2004 3:39PM

Pricetags aside, strictly from the standpoint of numbers, I'd say Russ would have a bit more difficulty cornering the market on AH '64 Kennedies than somebody who was trying to buy up all the '56 Flyers!

UncleJoe · May 23, 2004 9:59PM

I'd say Russ would have a bit more difficulty cornering the market on AH '64 Kennedies than somebody who was trying to buy up all the '56 Flyers!

How about from a $ point of view? Does anyone have an idea of how many 1856's (including "patterns") and AH Kennedy's exist? Then we could multiply by average prices to see which would really be less pricey.

Joe.

lordmarcovan · May 24, 2004 2:41AM

It's an interesting line of thought.

It got me to wondering about what I would go after, if I had the means and desire to try and corner the market on one particular coin.

Russ · May 24, 2004 3:07AM

<< How about from a $ point of view? Does anyone have an idea of how many 1856's (including "patterns") and AH Kennedy's exist? >>

I don't know about the flyers, but I'd put the surviving population of Accented Hairs in the 100,000 to 125,000 range. Most "authorities" claim that the total mintage was no more than 3%, but I think it was more like 5%. That would put the start point at about 200,000 pieces, and I'd guess that at least half of those survive today.

So, obviously, the variety is not scarce and it would really not be possible for anybody to corner the market on the coins. The thing about the Accented Hair, though, is that a very large portion of the population are junk grading no better than PR65. They are plagued with problems to a much greater degree than the regular proof. The key with this coin is finding the high grade cameos and deep cameos. Those are very difficult, and have become my main focus.

Russ, NCNE

EagleEye · May 24, 2004 8:34AM

John A. Beck died in the 1920's, I believe. His coins were off the market untill 1975. The 1856's were all sold through the three auctions by Quality Sales (Abner Kreisberg) or pivately through the same firm. Most of the coins were XF or so and sold in the $1,500 range. Beck bought any and all for a standing $15 (or it was $10) so he got the worst on the market, not the best. He had some oddities as well.

EagleEye · May 24, 2004 8:39AM

As to the 1856 Flyer's popularity - It can't be merely a factor of how many there are. It is THE coin that jump started collecting in this country. It has always been one of the most sought after coins in all of numismatics! Nothing will change that. As prices go up - sure many will not buy. The 1856 didn't participate in the 1980's boom (too soon after the beck release), or even the 1990 boom. They are now as hot as they ever were. Only now there are many people buying them all up.

oreville · May 24, 2004 10:18AM

Rick Snow: What is not mentioned (but is implied) in your post is the incredible price stability of the 1856 FE cent. According to the Red Book, there is only one year in which the FE cent ever went down in price since 1947 (and a small decrease at that) which puts the 1856 FE almost on a par with bank CD's for virtual guarantee of safety of principal and earnings every year.

But you knew that already.......

I once told you how Jonathan Kern gave me a 3 (ok it might have only been 2 years!) year full money back guarantee on an PCGS green insert AU-50 1856 FE cent that was simply stunning. I had never seen that long a money back guarantee before and will probably never see that again. Even Kern said that it was the coin that made him comfortable in giving me the guarantee and that I had nothing to do with it.

STEWARTBLAYNUMIS · May 24, 2004 11:12AM

I could confortably say that S3 1856 Flying Eagle cents certified as ms 65 and higher have jumped astronomically in price
In Orlando Florida in January I witnessed an ms 65 sell for $85,000 and an ms 66 be auctioned for $172,000 respectively.
This is almost double the price a year earlier.

Stewart

Pushkin · May 25, 2004 12:09AM

LAWMAN · May 25, 2004 2:10AM

Russ: The way you really get your AH Kennedy's to get off the ground and fly (after you've bought all the good ones, of course) is to write the definitive and only book (or monograph) on the subject, profusely illustrated with great color photos and your clearest explanations of how it all works and what to look for. Launch the book here like Condor did with his (and many others - I dutifully buy them all) and you are on the road to numismatic sainthood status. There was a time when people paid no attention to cameos too.

Just a thought, of course.

Lakesammman · May 25, 2004 2:43AM

Just a few musings from an aging curmudgeon.

Nice looking coin, by the way. Does it have a reverse??

After reading the original vs. restrike debate repeatedly, I think there is good reason for the price differential. That said, they are ALL desirable and, Pushkin, there is nothing inferior about your 1856.

homerunhall · May 25, 2004 3:00AM

I was one of the distributors of the Beck hoard 1856 Flying Eagles circa 1975-76. Abner Kreisberg and Jerry Cohen of Quality Sales in Beverly Hills handled the sale of the estate (which also included a huge hoard of $50 Territorial gold slugs.) Abner and Jerry held an auction which included about a dozen examples of the 1956 FE, from Good to Choice "Unc" and "Proof." They used this sale to establish a price. They then quoted a consignment price to a few retailers, me included. We ran ads offering an assortment of 1856 FEs in various grades. When we got an order we went to Abner and Jerry and picked up a coin to fill the order. Took about two years to sell most of the hoard as I remember. The majority of the coins were VG to XF. Unfortunately, at that time we didn't have Rick Snow's die variety work and I can't remember much about the look of the coins. I do remember that there were very few Choice Uncs, but I can't remember whether they were S3s or whatever.

The 1856 Flying Eagle is one of the most famous pf all coins. It was the first small cent and the appearance of the Flying Eagle cent sparked the first coin collecting "boom" in this country. Some people say they are patterns, some say they are regular issues. Either way they are a high demand coin and I don't see any reason why that will change in the future. The 1856 FE was an important coin before the Beck hoard and prices did not go down because of the hoard. Most coin dealers knew about the hoard for years before it was finally sold.

David Hall

Pushkin · May 25, 2004 3:35AM

Conder101 · May 25, 2004 5:40AM

<< Some people say they are patterns, some say they are regular issues >>

Can't be a regular issue, design wasn't adopted until Feb 21,1857.

EagleEye · May 25, 2004 7:40AM

Thanks, David, for filling in some of the gaps in the thread as per the Beck hoard.

I think the price differential betwen the S-3 and S-9 is getting out of hand. That's free markets for ya. It shows that collectors do care about the minor differences brought out by numismatic research. Breen looked at a small portion of the Beck hoard and wrote up his finding in a special chapter in his Proof book. His insights were important and without too much error (unusual), although a bit hard to follow. I made his research clearer and added my own findings. He never saw an S-5, S-10 or a CN S-1. He did label what is now called S-3 as a MS coin.

My die pair numbering was supposed to be chronological, but later I found that the S-2 reverse was the same die as the 1857 proof. S-5 is now listed to be an original proof issue along with the S1 (also the S-3 is listed as original MS), S2 a product of 1857, S4 and S10 from 1858 (the reverse die is a low leaf die which began that year). S6-S9 are later strikings, by matching the die state with these earlier coins. The S-9 shares a later die state than some of the 1858 patterns that can be die linked to the reverse.

Made in 1856: S1 (PR), S5 (PR), S3 (MS)
Made in 1857: S2 (PR)
Made in 1858: S4 (PR), S10 (PR)
Made in 1858 or later S6 (?), S7 (?), S8 (MS?), S9 (PR)

Here's link to the book

oreville · May 25, 2004 3:08PM

The last hoard of 1856 FE cents was dispersed by Jay Parrino about 4-5 years ago when he had a roll of circulated 1856 FE cents. I understood it took all of several hours to sell the entire roll.

I believe it was at least partially from the Beck hoard.

EagleEye · May 26, 2004 8:07AM

I have been issuing attribution cards to properly distinguish the 1856's.

Link

Actually I issue them for all coins for $15, but the reason it started was because of the 1856's not being graded MS anymore.

Now there is seperate pricing for
MS in MS Holders: MS65's @ $85K
MS in PR holders: MS65's @ $55K
PR in MS holders: PR65's @$35K (premium for registry collectors)
PR in PR holders: PR65's @ $25K

boiler78 · May 26, 2004 8:17AM

Crazy Man! Not you Rick just an expression from my younger days.

Nic · May 26, 2004 10:10AM

I agree with Pushkin and enjoyed his coin. To each his own....give me that killer 66-67 original well struck 1857! Please

. K

1856 Flying Eagle cents

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