Slowly but surely, the word is getting out on PRO

qualitycards · May 21, 2004 11:27PM

With 10 hours to go on a 7 day auction, this lot has not been opened at $275. The spammed title states T206 PSA 9 which would bring in $1300 - $2000, but once the bidders see a PRO card scanned, they walk away. The customer base has to be shrinking w/ PRO, as many willing customers stay away after a bad expierience w/ a questionable card cost them $ ...jay
eBay spammed auction listing PSA 9

Vargha · May 22, 2004 12:36AM

However, it is a common card and the type of collector interested in such a card from that set knew about PRO a long time ago. PRO's best niche is HOF superstars (like Mantle) directed for sale at greedy neophytes.

Buckwheat · May 22, 2004 1:25AM

That is good to hear, Jay. Hopefully, the sharks will find fewere and fewer buyers.

But I agree with Vargha that neophytes will always be available on the star cards. However, if they are buying it as a personal keepsake, and don't plan to resell, I guess the card may have "value" to them. They are probably as good a deal as most "mint" Ebay raw cards. Perhaps it's like cubic zirconium. It looks nice, is a lot cheaper, and only a few can tell the difference.

Thegradinator · May 22, 2004 1:40AM

what would be crazy is if the card is not altered and he sent the card to PRO not knowing about their reputation. it's not a private auction.

jrdolan · May 22, 2004 2:19AM

Word is spreading about PRO, for sure, but not fast enough... since these razor specials keep selling. Who knows, maybe most buyers know what's going on and hope to either resell for a profit, or get away with a crossover. A big payoff if they succeed. Or maybe they are mostly people new to the graded scene, learning the hard way.

What's amazing to me is that anyone still believes that a genuine and expensive vintage card would be sent to PRO for slabbing.

MorrellMan · May 22, 2004 2:22AM

"This one is perfectly centered with razor corners."

I think the seller gave the secret away in his description....mighta shoulda oughta stayed away from descriptive words like "razor", "knife", "scissor", that sort of thing....

qualitycards · May 22, 2004 3:02AM

Gradeinator - I don't buy that logic, as the seller is aware of PSA to spam it in the title and must be fully aware that if this were a PSA card and graded the same MINT-9, then it would sell for multiples of the PRO price...jay

Stone193 · May 22, 2004 3:19AM

Crap Mantle:

Jay
Interestingly, I was thinking the same thing and saved this one to track and see. I too believe the word is getting out. Look how cheap this 67T Mantlewent for! There's always going to be someone suckered into buying this crap and perhaps some of the Pro grades are legit but then again, someday I may be quarterbacking the Oakland Raiders?
Mike

qualitycards · May 22, 2004 3:22AM

<< someday I may be quarterbacking the Oakland Raiders? >>

MIKE - After their season last year, they can probably use you!

...jay

ctsoxfan · May 22, 2004 3:38AM

How true about it being novices that are still being conned by PRO. You still see Mantle/Mays/Clemente cards being altered and sold in PRO holders, and probably always will as long as people think they are getting a legitimate graded card. I know this board is helping to shed some light on PRO's fraud.

Thegradinator · May 22, 2004 4:25AM

Ct, I wouldn't call it fraud on Pro's part, the fraud is on the sellers part leading you to believe that it is an unaltered card. Pro just grades everything. A trimmed card with sharp corners to them warrants a 10. That is there standard, low as it may be.
As for my comment earlier about the owner not knowing Pro's standard, it was half hearthedly said. I am surprised though that he didn't leave it private. Everyone then can email the bidders.

A761506 · May 22, 2004 4:46AM

There is an ever so slim chance that an unknowledgable collector could submit legit cards to PRO... the reason being they advertise in Beckett with an $8.50/10 day special that is cheaper than the other services. If someone didn't know any better, and they wanted the same "plastic that is used in the co_kpits of military jets" then PRO could see some regulation size cards once in a while. Then, once the people realize their cards are now worth less in a PRO holder than they are raw, they might think about crossing them.

I'd be interested in stats from PSA about how many PRO and 3rd-rate slabs they receive each week or month and what percentage of them qualify for the cross-over. I'd bet it's less than 10%.

Stone193 · May 22, 2004 5:44AM

<< Ct, I wouldn't call it fraud on Pro's part, the fraud is on the sellers part leading you to believe that it is an unaltered card. Pro just grades everything. A trimmed card with sharp corners to them warrants a 10. That is there standard, low as it may be. >>

TheGrad
I'm going to have to disagree with you - they state right in their submission form Pro Terms and Procedures their position on this matter. Based on that, I'm with Soxfan - they're lucky the FBI doesn't swoop down on their a$$ and throw them in the slammer! The fact that the world is loaded with much more important fish to fry, that these guys get to continue to operate. I also copied paragraph 2 which states their position on "Trimmed Cards".

PRO will not grade cards which bear evidence of trimming, recoloring, restoration or any other form of tampering, or are of questionable authenticity. In the vent PRO rejects any card for grading, the fee paid by the customer for the services WILL NOT be refunded because the determination to rejects a card will require a review by PRO's grading experts.

We have had a discussion on this before and many were amazed to find out that this dubious operation actually puts their foot in their mouth with their own rhetoric. I am NOT a lawyer but the statement on trimmed cards would leave the average person to believe that they MEASURE cards or they wouldn't be able to make any statement on evidence of trimming.
Mike

Thegradinator · May 22, 2004 7:29AM

I apologize everyone. I did not realize Pro states that they do not grade trimmed cards. They are commiting fraud if they are knowingly grading these cards trimmed. If the FBI came to them, they would probably show then that guy that looks like a mole on the Simpsons and say "here is our expert grader, Eagle Eye Eddie" Check out the image below.

Stone193 · May 22, 2004 7:47AM

<< I apologize everyone >>

Thegrad
No apology necessary, IMO. We are here to discuss and learn. I have missed a bunch while here. Heck, if I were 100%, I would own something like this instead of posting on it!

Mike

Thegradinator · May 22, 2004 7:52AM

Very True Stoneman Thanks.

MorrellMan · May 22, 2004 9:13AM

<< PRO will not grade cards which bear evidence of trimming, recoloring, restoration or any other form of tampering, or are of questionable authenticity. >>

I think PRO states their terms very clearly. In the case of trimmed, recolored or restored cards, evidence of such must be presented by a bear. What's the problem?

bill7549 · May 22, 2004 9:45PM

I think it might be about time for a test of PRO's ability to detect trimmed or altered cards. Not that I would ever use them anyway because of their reputation, but they may be trying to change card collector's perspectives about their grading (since everyone here knows they suck). We should break out a star card from a PRO holder and resubmit to PRO, then try to color the borders of another card, then try to trim one up ourselves and see how good PRO is at detecting the alterations.

The reason for the test is that I think quite a few of the PRO cards are probably ones that were graded years ago and just keep recirculating on eBay as the buyer's find out their mistake.

SDavid · May 23, 2004 8:26AM

I wonder how many of the buyers are really ignorant about PRO and how many simply fall into the gambler category. I'm sure a lot of them probably figure they can try to get the card past psa/sgc/gai and, if not, they can just sell it back on ebay and recoup most of their costs. It's essentially a chance to win a paid vacation with very little risk. (Also very little chance of winning, but who ever said all gamblers were smart?)

Then there are the dealers who buy them off ebay for markup purposes. I've seen pro/cta/csa/etc. cards in a few local shops, all with psa-type prices assigned to them. You can also find them on the beckett marketplace.

I think there will always be a submarket for these lower tier companies even if the whole world knows the scoop.

qualitycards · May 23, 2004 8:39AM

BILL - There was a board member here who took a handful of cards and trimmed them w/ an exacto knife, some he took out a sliver, while on others a big amount. Submitted them all to PRO, and all came back graded. He had before & after scans of the cards after he sliced & diced. It was a good read. Does anybody else remember this thread? ...jay

aro13 · May 23, 2004 9:20AM

jay - It was Bruce Moreland who sent the cards to PRO. I went to his website but could not find the experiment nor could I find it on the site. Somebody who is good at looking up past articles should be able to find the article.

srs1a · May 23, 2004 9:40AM

I think it is tough for anyone to believe that a mint T-206 (or any T- card) from any grading company is legit...and add PRO to the story and is just smells bad, really bad. There are plenty of stories circulating about "oversize" raw T-206s being bought up for premiums several+ years ago and speculation that they many now reside in "legit" NM holders. A real MINT T-206? Not many around would be my guess.

1420sports · May 23, 2004 9:52AM

a good ole Bruce experiment

aro13 · May 23, 2004 10:06AM

1420 sports - Thanks for finding the link! It still is a great read.

SDavid · May 23, 2004 12:29PM

You can get a "NM-MT" T-206 on the Beckett Marketplace for a mere $1,200.

Link

Aren't you glad Beckett provided a safehaven for collectors from all those ripoff artists on ebay? I think that's been a theme from at least 10-15 Rob Veres' columns.

If CTA is "Cut Trimmed and Altered," what's CSA?

Buckwheat · May 23, 2004 12:38PM

Whatever happened to Brucemo? He was one of the most insightful guys on the board.

Stone193 · May 23, 2004 12:59PM

<< Whatever happened to Brucemo? He was one of the most insightful guys on the board. >>

Rob
Brucemo is right here next door.
Mike

pretzel · May 23, 2004 9:25PM

stone193--

brucemo's posts on that thread are from october 2002

Stone193 · May 24, 2004 12:40AM

Rob
Sorry to mislead you - I didn't look at the date of the thread. I remember Brucemo posting in may so he is around.
Mike

purelyPSA · May 24, 2004 5:59AM

PRO will likely always be around. They're kind of like a tapeworm: as long as they don't kill the host, they can stay alive indefinitely. I think if they haven't been busted by authorities for fraud by now, they won't, unless they do something really egregious. Besides, there are scores of greedy fools out there just looking for a free lunch. I doubt they'll run out of those anytime soon. Unfortunately.

gemint · May 24, 2004 10:16AM

I got a good laugh out of the 1967 Mantle PRO 8 auction. The description states 'from my personal collection'. I guess that means he personally trimmed it assuring a clean, straight edge. I've always been tempted to take a common, slice off the borders and see if PRO would slab it. In fact, it gave me an idea for a new thread challenging people to show a scan of the worst PRO graded hack job.

Slowly but surely, the word is getting out on PRO

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