Identifying Original Copper: The Participation of All Copper Gurus Is Hereby Invited
CalGold
Posts: 2,608 ✭✭
In light of (1) the recent Don Merz body bagged IHC thread, (2) Russ's new body bagged IHC thread, and (3) the fact that I have started collecting toned IHC proofs (though I will only buy NGC or PCGS coins) it seems that a worthwhile thread would be one on identifying natural vs AT or otherwise messed with copper, if such a thing can be done with images.
Accordingly, all copper gurus are hereby invited to participate in this thread, sharing their knowledge and elucidating us about the art of winnowing out copper that has been messed with.
I will begin by borrowing Shylock’s image of the wide array of tones in which red IHC can be found. In that regard, as this montage appears to have been made from raw coins, feel free to pontificate on whether any of those depicted are not original.
Further, as a possible topic of further discussion, I will call your attention to the fourth coin from the right in the bottom row (1899) and suggest a comparison with Don Merz’s body bagged 1899.
Link To Don Merz 1899 IHC Thread
Link to Red Tone IHCs
CG
Accordingly, all copper gurus are hereby invited to participate in this thread, sharing their knowledge and elucidating us about the art of winnowing out copper that has been messed with.
I will begin by borrowing Shylock’s image of the wide array of tones in which red IHC can be found. In that regard, as this montage appears to have been made from raw coins, feel free to pontificate on whether any of those depicted are not original.
Further, as a possible topic of further discussion, I will call your attention to the fourth coin from the right in the bottom row (1899) and suggest a comparison with Don Merz’s body bagged 1899.
Link To Don Merz 1899 IHC Thread
Link to Red Tone IHCs
CG
0
Comments
With copper color is designated along with the grade. The coins are either red RD, red brown RB or brown BN. In reality, the colors of RB and BN may include rainbow colors such as green, blue, gold and magenta. Some BN coins are actually vivid blue and those command price closer to RD than BN.
A very slight difference in color may separate RD from RB, and the color designation may be subject to differences of opinion just like grade, and like differences in grade the price difference between RD and RB can be very large.
CG
Looks like everyone is shy, so I'll step up and just make a comment. I do not profess to be a "guru", but I have looked at thousands and thousands of Lincolns throughout the entire series. This is a great idea for a thread. I would love to learn more about what others think about toning or artificial toning with respect to copper coins. The pictures however are just to difficult to interpret. I find that looking at a copper coin that I need it in hand to rotate under the light and see how it handles the light. I am anxiously awaiting to hear what others have to say.
Chris
My Collection of Old Holders
Never a slave to one plastic brand will I ever be.
I am pretty sure that the coins Shylock used were all slabbed coins. He's pretty adept at plucking out images and doing artsy arrangements.
This issue has been debated by many copper collectors.Stewart Blay is the most outspoken of us.There has been many heated discussions between Stewart and TPG's in regards to color.In my post I made my feelings known.Copper coins are made of an alloy.As such especially in early coins the process was IMHO less than perfect.This would lead to variations in color.Coins can servive in pristine condition with color less than "RED".While I don't know the complete pedigree of the 1899 IHC,I think I've seen enough to know that this one hasn't been tampered with.If it has,it is one of the best jobs I've ever seen.
Registry 1909-1958 Proof Lincolns
Best thing to do is to look at alot of certified copper and get a feel for what is acceptable to the services (PCGS and NGC primarily). It's like the FBI agent who is an expert in counterfeit currency. Instead of studying counterfeits, he studies the real thing so he'll know a counterfeit when it comes along.
With regard to RED coins, NGC will allow a pinker coin into a slab than will PCGS. So many coins have turned in the holder that both services have become gun shy about certifying copper. It has to have a completely original look to get in now a days. BOTH sides should be red or golden in color, nice cartwheel luster, relatively spot free, etc. The services will allow coins that have had spots removed but I suspect it costs a grade or 2. The more expensive the coin, the more liability there is to the servies, so the coin will either get BB'd or knocked down a grade. I recommend that, if you are going to submit for upgrade, leave it in a holder.
RB coins are those that are 20-90% red (rough numbers). The liability is less on these so they are easier to get certified. If they turn from 80% to 30% red, there's no liability. As with the red coins, there should be nice luster, cartwheels, etc. Spots and areas of unattractive toning are allowed but will cost a grade or 2.
Brown coins are upto 20% red. They can acquire some of the nicest colors in the IHC series, especially when a uniform purple or blue. These later colors are more acceptable on proofs because of the way the coins were packaged and stored. These colors are suspect on any MS coin, even though a few are original.
Some of the coins in Shylocks collage are mine and they are certified, both services. They were cropped with Photoshop.
Shylocks collage is great in that it shows the range of what's acceptable and the range of colors that result depending on the year of issue, planchet content, storage variations, etc.
Finally, don't use the below coins as a guide. Only the one on the far right is a red IHC, some of the others "off" metal patterns.
Certain copper coins that have been posted in various threads have been fairly easy to identify as either natural or artificial/questionable in color, while others have been extremely difficult, if not impossible. However, I could say the same about many toned silver and nickel coins, as well.
It is almost always immeasurably better to be able to have the coin in hand and tilt and rotate it under proper lighting conditions, in order to study and assess it properly. Even then, if one doesn't have sufficient experience and knowledge of what shades copper naturally turns to, as well as expertise regarding the specific intricacies of various looks/shades/colors for a given year of production, hands-on evaluation might not make any difference anyway. And, even with such knowledge, there is often still room for legitimate debate.
I think the most helpful thing we can do as a group for purposes of such a thread, is to post various images (which hopefully are accurate/true to life - if they are not, their discussion becomes at least partially wasted/moot) and discuss them. There are a number of posters here who have excellent knowledge on this subject - let's coax them into posting.
Mark,
I already posted! Oh, you must not have been talking about me, sorry
Here are several coins that I hope show the range of colors and what cartwheel/luster looks like. They are from top left to bottom right:
1872 PCGS MS66RB - probably the prettiest IHC I've ever owned. 70% red?? Coinguy, what % wold you call it??
1877 PCGS MS66RB - color is "believable", reasonably uniform, fades/transitions between colors "smoothly". What %red? - got me.
1883 NGC 66Br - slight purple tinge, still nice cartwheel and lustre.
1898 NGC MS67R - S25 with "0" in denticles - very deep red but still considered red by most.
1897 PCGS MS66R - More of a golden color, nice cartwheels, etc.
1899 PCGS MS67R - My second favorite after the 1872 above - was said to have been purchased raw off ebay for $25, the submittor hoping for 65R, wet his pants when it came back 67R. Made a tidy profit. Has the smoothest cheek and fields I've ever seen on a IHC, just a perfect planchet.
WS
No offense taken. It is a interesting color but, in person, it's a beautiful, original looking coin.
The one thing I've never figured out is, if it's possible to mess with a coin and make it look original red and worth a small fortune, why are they still so rare?? Is it a well coordinated conspiracy by the coin doctors to only place a few on the market now and then?? Are the services in on it and the pops artificailly low?? Why are there so many clearly doctored, BB'd coins and so few that make it into red holders??
Lakes,
I have had the same thought many times. If I were able to recolor a RB or BN coin, or remove spots and then recolor the area, I think I would do it quite a few times. Probably not for the money, but actually I think it would be kind of fun. So, I agree, if there were people that had perfected the process, why are red 26-S Lincolns still so hard to come by? What about 14-D, 09-S VDB, etc.?
My cent worth!
Tbig
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<< <i> Copper is alot like sex. You can't learn by reading about it or looking at pictures. >>
Yea, verily!!
Here's a Victorian copper that makes me quiver!!!
This one makes me shake!!
And this is the hot babe that just won't let go.........
And finally, regardless of what PCGS might have thought, this cent is 100% original.
Cheers! And have a good night, or is it morning.
Links aren't working for me. Are they working for others??
Understanding the color of copper is alot like sex.What a perverted thought.
Get rid of that 97.Send it back to PCGS for a guarantee.Do not crack it out
Maccrimmon - nice 1837 !!!
Stewart
<< <i>1899 PCGS MS67R - My second favorite after the 1872 above - was said to have been purchased raw off ebay for $25, the submittor hoping for 65R, wet his pants when it came back 67R. Made a tidy profit. Has the smoothest cheek and fields I've ever seen on a IHC, just a perfect planchet. >>
Nice story. Nice score for the ebay buyer.
To the extent that showing photos of original vs altered color may be difficult, would anyone care to expound verbally on key things to look for other than "pink" ?
Stewart, please expound on your remarks concerning Lakesamman's 1897. Exactly what about the color is suspect. Your "do not crack it out" quip makes me wonder if you were being facetious.
MacCrimmon, I take that 1837 came back in a BB. Have you tried to resubmit or submitted it elsewhere? What are others' thoughts on that one?
CG
<< <i>To the extent that showing photos of original vs altered color may be difficult, would anyone care to expound verbally on key things to look for other than "pink" ? >>
I think a good way to spot un-original indian cents is to look at the raw uncertied Unc. stuff on ebay- I seriously dought whether an original coin can be found and I think this will attest to the fact of how hard original coins are to find. mike
CG