Boo hoo, I didn't get my grades, and I really want PCGS slabbed coins that's why I buy raw coins. Since you don't have a very good eye, you might as well just buy PCGS slabbed coins, ie if you keeping buying raw coins stop complaining here as if you are smarter than PCGS.
Hey DH, The last IHC I won in Heritage's Portland auction was described as having pumpkin-orange color. It's in a green insert PCGS holder graded as MS65RD. Should I be sending back to PCGS for regrade?
Mr Hall I am truely sorry that you and the graders feel those coins are recolored.I am forced to start collecting all raw coins.I have seen many certified copper coins that look exactly like that one.Many in PCGS holders.The grade of that coin IMHO is PQ MS65 with a shot at MS66.I bought it for resale to enhance my Lincoln Collection.I will be sending you all of the incerts from my Registry Coins,as I have lost faith in your company.I will try to find another way of protecting my coins. Sincerely Donald Merz
Don, don't forget it's just PCGS's opinion. If the coin is a true 65- shot 66 you shoud have no problem selling it raw for good money. I am sorry to see this end up badly. mike
Mr Merz and others seem to be overlooking the fact that when that coin was submitted to PCGS for grading, PCGS was also being asked to GUARANTEE that the color was original. In other words, for a $30 fee PCGS was being asked to underwrite several hundred dollars of risk. Like any other insurer they needed to evaluate the risk they would be undertaking for that fee. In some ways the grading fee is like an insurance premium. Insurance companies will not underwrite all risks; neither will PCGS.
Upon examination of the coin, their graders concluded that the coin was not origninal. They could just as well have concluded that they were not sufficiently certain as to its originality to make that guarantee, and could have BB'd the coin for that reason alone. Here Mr. Hall has stated that they affirmatively felt that the coin was not original, but in other cases when you get a BB they might be opting out of grading based on uncertainty; thus the "questionable toning" BB.
The logical thing to do is to shop for a different insurer; send it to NGC and if that does not work try ANACS for a net grade.
There are a few guys out there who tinker with copper and are very good at what they do! I have seen coins before and after and I can tell you that if I had a lot of money tied-up in RED or RB stuff I would not sleep at night. There are many coppers in plastic that are not original. However, to the credit of PCGS they will bag a coin if they are in doubt about it, that is the way it should be.
If you are in the Western North Carolina area, please consider visiting our coin shop:
The last 1000 pumpkins I saw were ORANGE.I would describe this 1899 as PINK. I have seen complete rolls of GEM UNCIRCULATED 1899 Indian cents and I will say that the color of the skin on all of them was "pumpkin orange".
Merz
Hang in there.I can help you out if I see you in Baltimore in July.You have a good eye.Think about the time you bought the 37 from Doug and it upgraded and you made several thousand dollars. BTW your correct in saying the color of copper varies.
<< <i>I will be sending you all of the incerts from my Registry Coins,as I have lost faith in your company.I will try to find another way of protecting my coins. Sincerely Donald Merz >>
Don, I am responding publically to the above comment because I know, AND YOU KNOW, you are currently very upset with how PCGS treated your coins. Believe me Don, you will accomplish NOTHING by cracking out of PCGS slabs your very valuable collection of Lincoln proof cents. Besides the significant monitary loss you would suffer you will NOT get any true satisfaction from that action because PCGS really must operate in the business way that they do. This is big business to them. I have long ago accepted the fact that it is a crap shoot submitting coins. You win some, you lose some. Fortunately, I have never tried to make a top pop or very valuable coin. I accepted my 1909VDB Matte Proof as a PR61 from an ANACS PR63 because I recognized PCGS is the best place to have my valuable (for me) coins. Since you get very upset about this grading from time to time, I would suggest you stick with graded coins if they are valuable. If you happen to find a raw coin that you like, don't pay more than raw money for it and recognize up front that it will be a crap shoot to get it slabbed. JMHO. and again, please don't crack out those slabs!. Steve
Seriously, please heed Steve's comments. Do NOT do anything in haste, not when there is so much financially at stake. If you must disassociate yourself from PCGS slabs, then sell them and use the money to buy other coins. Do not destroy the value that comes with the power of the slab. I know that you love your coins. Coins first. But, the market as it exists today derives value from slabs.
If you must prove a point to yourself, make sure that it's done thoughtfully and with fiscal prudence.
Finally, seek out Stewie and ask him for comments regarding your BB'ed coppers. I'd bet good money that he would be able to give you very helpful comments.
I agree with others here, don't do anything in haste. If you can sleep, sleep on it. I have had those same thoughts on certain days. Unfortunately, PCGS is a titan and your act of defiance will not stir that giant. If you want to swear off (or maybe at) PCGS, then I say sell your coins in the slabs and never buy another PCGS product again. Why should you take a financial hit for this? It doesn't make sense. PLEASE, just take a breather, go out for a walk, watch a rerun of that great Timberwolves game last night, do anything, but don't start cracking slabs.
Don, don't lose your head. You know you have made more by using PCGS than any other way with coins.
I have dipped a few copper cents (cheap ones) to see what they look like. Try it. They will have the same pinkish color as the 1899 IHC. If you use a little other material on it after you dip it, you will see some of that yellowish tan coming back. I see shades of it on the obverse.
I bought two high dollar proof Lincolns from you that you made in PCGS holders. You also got another one I sold you upgraded when I couldn't. You're ahead, and smart enough to stay ahead. Cracking out the slabs you have right now would erase all of that. Take a couple of weeks off and think about it.
Don;t get all mad at PCGS, they made the correct call on that 1899 cent, as that is not an original mint red coin and has clearly been played with. As I said, it's sometimes hard to tell in some cases until you put the coin next to an original mint red coin, and then the difference becomes readily apparent.
Russ, I am well aware coins are born raw. The poor guy who started this thread loves raw coins, that is why he bought the 1899 cent. He loves raw so much he wanted to get the coin slabbed. Aside from moderns, older coins that are desirable make their way into slabs. That is why this forum exists, and we are both participating. We both give business to PCGS. Raw coins before 1900 grow fewer and fewer in number. This coin has probably been submitted on more than one occasion. My point is that a raw coin from before 1900 sends a red flag that the coin has probably been rejected before.
If you love raw coins, great, keep them raw, but geez, these guys who buy raw but complain the coin has to remain raw are too much for me.
<< <i>I will be sending you all of the incerts from my Registry Coins,as I have lost faith in your company.I will try to find another way of protecting my coins. >>
<< <i>Russ, I am well aware coins are born raw. My point is that a raw coin from before 1900 sends a red flag that the coin has probably been rejected before. >>
Yea Russ, remember that next time they bag your 2 cent piece. If you resubmit it there is no chance that it will come back graded 65 and be a POP 1 with zero graded higher, just doesn't happen that way (except in the movies).
Ask for a complete answer as to why it bagged. They should be able to tell you if the surface has been altered by acids or the like, or if something has been added to the surface.
<< <i>I suppose you think steak actually comes from the grocery store? >>
Yes, and it is located in the back of the store where they make it.
Merz2: I realize that this must feel like a divorce but just sit back and get some more opinions (NGC and Stewand especially Rick Snow).
Do not get emotional at this point. Resolve to study your coins more and verify PCGS's opinion.
I too went through a tough time with dipped copper back in the 1987-1988 era.
I learned.
I cannot comment on your coin as it is impossible to be sure from pics. I am amazed that anyone looking at these pics can be sure one way or another except to speculate.
One thing is certainly true, poor Merz has gotten his money's worth of opinions. Someone earlier commented that maybe someone in the grading room was having a bad day, indicating it would only take one guy to bb the coin. David Hall posted earlier and suggested the coins were discussed by the graders and it was more of a consensus opinion. That is more than most of us ever learn why are coins are graded the way they are, and what happens with our coins in the grading room.
On top of that, now Merz has all of our wisdom. Hopefully he has had a change of heart and won't crack all of his slabs tonight.
So my point is Merz has underpaid for all this advice. He should send another hundred bucks to PCGS, five bucks to each person who has posted here, and maybe if he has anything left a few extra bucks to one of those defense funds.
lava I have watched the comments of some great collectors here.I have the utmost respect for most of them.Some I've had the pleasure to meet,and others I hope to meet.While I don't make a living grading copper coins, I do know what I like.I send coins to PCGS for preservation.I don't have to have their opinion on grade.The coins in this submission were coins I liked.The 1899 has more luster than the average modern coin.The strike is as good as most modern coins.For a 105 year old coin it is exceptional.Especially when you consider the minting process of that era.As I said earlier copper is an alloy.As such there is bound to be some variation in color.I am sorry you don't agree.PCGS graders and yes even David Hall are not gods.Their collective opinions do matter with respect to $ value.The bottom line is I like the coins.I did buy the 1899 for resale to an IHC collector.I was hoping to get it into a slab for protection,but I'm sure I can sell it to some IHC collector that sees it in person! There are some coins that have to be seen to be appreciated.As to your personal comments about me,. I don't know you and it appears you know little about me.As I said in my PM to you,check your facts before poping off.Check my Registry Sets,over half of those coins were made by me. Read my posts to others threads.You might change your opinion.
Sorry about the results Don. I AM going to crack out my red IHC's and Lincoln Cents because I want to have a nice collection all kept together in the same manner. What's the point of having a box of pcgs slabs, a pile of ngc ones, an anacs or two scattered about, and a bunch raw. What kind of set of small cents is that? I AM worried about getting coins back into holders if the day comes that I need to sell, but it is a risk I must have to take to make collecting fun for me. I say go ahead and crack out your coins and never submit to pcgs! I wanted to never submit to them but I finally broke down and had to in order to be able to better sell some duplicates. This is how my coins are stored, perfectly safe I might add...
You crazy maverick! I say Bravo. Unfortunately, I am into the PCGS game too heavily at his point to follow your lead. It's all about enjoying your collection. If keeping them in a page makes you happy then I say go for it.
Much the same as haletj, I cracked a bunch of slabbed coins back in my newbie days (or daze) for the sake of an appealing way to display them. I was hot to put together a set of Barber halves, and spent quite a bit of the monthly budget on Teletrade. When the coin market started heating up, I figgered what the hey, I'm never going to complete the Barber collection, just too darn much $$$$$, so why not resubmit a few of the coins I thought had the possibility to upgrade, and make some fairly serious money on them. Well, what a surprise I got - the first 2 I submitted to PCGS were BB'd for altered surfaces, which really got my undies twisted, just like Frank! I called & wrote letters to PCGS, took return calls from their graders, contacted Teletrade - and in the end, I still have the coins in my Barber collection, and they look just the same (very nice!) to me as the day I rec'd them from Teletrade. Just for sheets & giggles, I submitted one of them to NGC about 3 months ago, and same result. So, I learned an expensive but valuable lesson from the entire ordeal (I guess that's redundant - all valuable lessons tend to be expensive...) and don't crack anymore slabs on coins older than 30 years or so. But, at the end of the day, I can still pull out that collection of halves and enjoy it just as much as before - the coins still look pretty darn good and I'm very happy keeping them, in spite of their altered surfaces! It's both a blessing and a curse that the "coin collecting" of my youth has evolved into the convoluted hobby/market that it is now, but knowledge is power, and we can use it to turn our erstwhile "hobby" into a profitable parctice when we want to......just have to learn to separate the "emotional"collecting from the cold, hard marketplace of investing. Since this topic has been discussed many times from various angles, I'll step down from my box now, and go back to lurking.........Chuck
Don't you know that it's worth every treasure on Earth to be young at heart? And as rich as you are, it's much better by far, to be young at heart!
Thanks JTK. Your gem ms67+ Lincolns are a little different than my ms64's!
Sorry about your Barbers Golddustin. Stories like that do scare me. Also stories of ngc coins not crossing to pcgs for altered surfaces. All in all I plan to hold the set long term, and who knows what grading will be like then (probably some whole new system so we all need to get our coins graded again anyway), or maybe my set could even be sold raw. And hopefully enough more of my coins would upgrade rather than downgrade or not grade. I really am trying to learn myself though how to tell about altered color. I had a raw 1880 IHC I thought was okay but showed it to Rick Snow and it wasn't. I guess it just takes more experience.
I would suggest you purchase an Eagle certified slab album. Each page holds 9 PCGS or NGC slabs. It is a perfect way to keep the coins in certified holders and at the same time display the coins. The pages can be put into 3 ring binders with your own design or you can purchase the Eagle binders from the company. Binders can hold 3 up to 5 or 6 pages each. Steve
Comments
Hey DH, The last IHC I won in Heritage's Portland auction was described as having pumpkin-orange color. It's in a green insert PCGS holder graded as MS65RD. Should I be sending back to PCGS for regrade?
<< <i>Pumkin is a coin grader term for a re-colored copper coin. Cameron Kiefer >>
My wife will call me "pumpkin" as a term of endearment. Or, at least up till now, that's what I thought she was doing!
peacockcoins
I am truely sorry that you and the graders feel those coins are recolored.I am forced to start collecting all raw coins.I have seen many certified copper coins that look exactly like that one.Many in PCGS holders.The grade of that coin IMHO is PQ MS65 with a shot at MS66.I bought it for resale to enhance my Lincoln Collection.I will be sending you all of the incerts from my Registry Coins,as I have lost faith in your company.I will try to find another way of protecting my coins.
Sincerely
Donald Merz
Registry 1909-1958 Proof Lincolns
Upon examination of the coin, their graders concluded that the coin was not origninal. They could just as well have concluded that they were not sufficiently certain as to its originality to make that guarantee, and could have BB'd the coin for that reason alone. Here Mr. Hall has stated that they affirmatively felt that the coin was not original, but in other cases when you get a BB they might be opting out of grading based on uncertainty; thus the "questionable toning" BB.
The logical thing to do is to shop for a different insurer; send it to NGC and if that does not work try ANACS for a net grade.
CG
WNC Coins, LLC
1987-C Hendersonville Road
Asheville, NC 28803
wnccoins.com
David
The last 1000 pumpkins I saw were ORANGE.I would describe this 1899 as PINK.
I have seen complete rolls of GEM UNCIRCULATED 1899 Indian cents and I will say that the color of the skin on all of them was "pumpkin orange".
Merz
Hang in there.I can help you out if I see you in Baltimore in July.You have a good eye.Think about the time you bought the 37 from Doug and it upgraded and you made several thousand dollars.
BTW your correct in saying the color of copper varies.
Stewart
<< <i>I will be sending you all of the incerts from my Registry Coins,as I have lost faith in your company.I will try to find another way of protecting my coins.
Sincerely
Donald Merz >>
Don,
I am responding publically to the above comment because I know, AND YOU KNOW, you are currently very upset with how PCGS treated your coins. Believe me Don, you will accomplish NOTHING by cracking out of PCGS slabs your very valuable collection of Lincoln proof cents. Besides the significant monitary loss you would suffer you will NOT get any true satisfaction from that action because PCGS really must operate in the business way that they do. This is big business to them. I have long ago accepted the fact that it is a crap shoot submitting coins. You win some, you lose some. Fortunately, I have never tried to make a top pop or very valuable coin. I accepted my 1909VDB Matte Proof as a PR61 from an ANACS PR63 because I recognized PCGS is the best place to have my valuable (for me) coins. Since you get very upset about this grading from time to time, I would suggest you stick with graded coins if they are valuable. If you happen to find a raw coin that you like, don't pay more than raw money for it and recognize up front that it will be a crap shoot to get it slabbed. JMHO. and again, please don't crack out those slabs!. Steve
My Complete PROOF Lincoln Cent with Major Varieties(1909-2015)Set Registry
Don,
Seriously, please heed Steve's comments. Do NOT do anything in haste, not when there is so much financially at stake. If you must disassociate yourself from PCGS slabs, then sell them and use the money to buy other coins. Do not destroy the value that comes with the power of the slab. I know that you love your coins. Coins first. But, the market as it exists today derives value from slabs.
If you must prove a point to yourself, make sure that it's done thoughtfully and with fiscal prudence.
Finally, seek out Stewie and ask him for comments regarding your BB'ed coppers. I'd bet good money that he would be able to give you very helpful comments.
Regards,
EVP
How does one get a hater to stop hating?
I can be reached at evillageprowler@gmail.com
Don,
I agree with others here, don't do anything in haste. If you can sleep, sleep on it. I have had those same thoughts on certain days. Unfortunately, PCGS is a titan and your act of defiance will not stir that giant. If you want to swear off (or maybe at) PCGS, then I say sell your coins in the slabs and never buy another PCGS product again. Why should you take a financial hit for this? It doesn't make sense.
PLEASE, just take a breather, go out for a walk, watch a rerun of that great Timberwolves game last night, do anything, but don't start cracking slabs.
Jack
Don, don't lose your head. You know you have made more by using PCGS than any other way with coins.
I have dipped a few copper cents (cheap ones) to see what they look like. Try it. They will have the same pinkish color as the 1899 IHC. If you use a little other material on it after you dip it, you will see some of that yellowish tan coming back. I see shades of it on the obverse.
I bought two high dollar proof Lincolns from you that you made in PCGS holders. You also got another one I sold you upgraded when I couldn't. You're ahead, and smart enough to stay ahead. Cracking out the slabs you have right now would erase all of that. Take a couple of weeks off and think about it.
Your friend,
Doug
<< <i>You raw guys crack me up. Stop buying raw coins already. >>
Uh, Lava, this may come as a shock, but all coins were raw at some point. I suppose you think steak actually comes from the grocery store?
Russ, NCNE
Don;t get all mad at PCGS, they made the correct call on that 1899 cent, as that is not an original mint red coin and has clearly been played with. As I said, it's sometimes hard to tell in some cases until you put the coin next to an original mint red coin, and then the difference becomes readily apparent.
dragon
If you love raw coins, great, keep them raw, but geez, these guys who buy raw but complain the coin has to remain raw are too much for me.
<< <i>I will be sending you all of the incerts from my Registry Coins,as I have lost faith in your company.I will try to find another way of protecting my coins. >>
No you won't...
<< <i>Russ, I am well aware coins are born raw.
My point is that a raw coin from before 1900 sends a red flag that the coin has probably been rejected before. >>
Yea Russ, remember that next time they bag your 2 cent piece. If you resubmit it there is no chance that it will come back graded 65 and be a POP 1 with zero graded higher, just doesn't happen that way (except in the movies).
Russ, NCNE
<< <i>I suppose you think steak actually comes from the grocery store? >>
Yes, and it is located in the back of the store where they make it.
Do not get emotional at this point. Resolve to study your coins more and verify PCGS's opinion.
I too went through a tough time with dipped copper back in the 1987-1988 era.
I learned.
I cannot comment on your coin as it is impossible to be sure from pics. I am amazed that anyone looking at these pics can be sure one way or another except to speculate.
On top of that, now Merz has all of our wisdom. Hopefully he has had a change of heart and won't crack all of his slabs tonight.
So my point is Merz has underpaid for all this advice. He should send another hundred bucks to PCGS, five bucks to each person who has posted here, and maybe if he has anything left a few extra bucks to one of those defense funds.
I have watched the comments of some great collectors here.I have the utmost respect for most of them.Some I've had the pleasure to meet,and others I hope to meet.While I don't make a living grading copper coins, I do know what I like.I send coins to PCGS for preservation.I don't have to have their opinion on grade.The coins in this submission were coins I liked.The 1899 has more luster than the average modern coin.The strike is as good as most modern coins.For a 105 year old coin it is exceptional.Especially when you consider the minting process of that era.As I said earlier copper is an alloy.As such there is bound to be some variation in color.I am sorry you don't agree.PCGS graders and yes even David Hall are not gods.Their collective opinions do matter with respect to $ value.The bottom line is I like the coins.I did buy the 1899 for resale to an IHC collector.I was hoping to get it into a slab for protection,but I'm sure I can sell it to some IHC collector that sees it in person! There are some coins that have to be seen to be appreciated.As to your personal comments about me,
Registry 1909-1958 Proof Lincolns
haletj,
You crazy maverick! I say Bravo. Unfortunately, I am into the PCGS game too heavily at his point to follow your lead. It's all about enjoying your collection. If keeping them in a page makes you happy then I say go for it.
every treasure on Earth
to be young at heart?
And as rich as you are,
it's much better by far,
to be young at heart!
Sorry about your Barbers Golddustin. Stories like that do scare me. Also stories of ngc coins not crossing to pcgs for altered surfaces. All in all I plan to hold the set long term, and who knows what grading will be like then (probably some whole new system so we all need to get our coins graded again anyway), or maybe my set could even be sold raw. And hopefully enough more of my coins would upgrade rather than downgrade or not grade. I really am trying to learn myself though how to tell about altered color. I had a raw 1880 IHC I thought was okay but showed it to Rick Snow and it wasn't. I guess it just takes more experience.
My Complete PROOF Lincoln Cent with Major Varieties(1909-2015)Set Registry