A True Story: Coin Doctors, Herbivores & Money

JadeRareCoin

I received an email this morning from a coin collector who also happens to be one of our customers. He asked me to post a story to the forum, so I am accommodating his request. As a disclaimer, I have no knowledge of the following event and cannot say if it is true or not. I can say that the person who sent me the email is honest and would have no reason to fabricate such a story. I hesitated to post the story, since I do not want to start any flame wars or cause an uproar. But, in light of the recent developments with the Coin Doctor Posse, I decided to go ahead and post the story. Maybe this can be the inaugural case for the Posse. Or........maybe there is nothing wrong with "enhancing" a coin to increase it's value from $5K to $19K in 15 minutes.

I would like to hear your thoughts. Is the dealer in the story an evil "coin doctor", or did he harmlessly curate the coin, thus preserving it for future generations?

Here's the story as I received it (edited only to remove some foul language):

via email......

.... which reminds me of a interesting story in numismatic high jinks that I must relate to you: Recently a good friend of mine who's a collector/dealer here in town, helped a little old widow convert her dearly departed husband's coin collection into cash. The old fellow had been collecting from circulation since the 1930's and had quite a hoard of nearly worthless, but meticulously documented error coins. He did, however, have a half dozen modern rarities, one of which was the ethereal 3-legged '37-D Buffalo (mind you, no collector of US coins can be taken seriously without an example of this little beauty in his cabinet). My friend is an honest man, as far as dealers go, and sent the important coins off to PCGS for her prior to purchasing them at levels near greysheet. Although I'm not a big fan of the series, I viewed the 3-legged beast prior to encapsulation and thought it was a nice, original 63... had some carbon spots and was not fully struck. My friend was disappointed when the coin came back from PCGS in a 64 holder.... he would now have to pay the grieving woman nearly $5K for the hobbled herbivore. The coin was passed on quickly to a midwest dealer for a modest profit and a promise to share in any windfalls to come. The midwest dealer passed it to a "mechanic" (this is the part of the story where my jaw dropped and I said "what an ***hole"). The coin doctor popped the crippled critter out of the PCGS slab, "lightened it up a bit", then "added a little color" and walked it over to the good folks at NGC. After careful deliberation, NGC pushed our now "painted buffalo" into a 65 holder. The coin sold that day for $19,000. My buddy will get one third of the take and some unknowing cardiologist or trial lawyer will be one stroke closer to **gasm with his Registry Set.

Neptune

IMHO, if the coin is, indeed, properly preserved with no future impending damage, then I think this is OK- however, I also feel that someone should give the lil ole lady at least part of the profit. Who knows what the coin will look like in 1,000 years?

Numismanic

<< <i>The midwest dealer passed it to a "mechanic" >>

poorguy

I think that the $14,000 difference would help me sleep at night. Or maybe I would have nightmares about AT coins!! AAAAHHHH!! NO GO AWAY!!! AAAAGGHHH!

In a nutshell, what the "mechanic" did was wrong, no matter how much money it gains.

Coin Doctors and Whores are kind of the same.

Hookers destroy their morals and their body because they can make more money by selling it like that.
Coin Doctors destroy coins and numismatics in general because they can make more money by selling it like that.

Hmm, coincidence? I think not. Coin Doctors are Whores.

Steve27

Boy am I dissapointed, when I saw "Herbivores" in the title, I thought he cleaned the coin by passing it through the digestive track of a cow.

poorguy

I apologize for the outburst. I didn't mean to offend any whores on the boards by comparing them with coin doctors.

FrattLaw

Poorguy -- actually I think whores are much better than coin doctors. At least you KNOW what you are getting when you deal with them.



(I have to admit that's actually a lawyer joke but I couldn't resist)

Michael

poorguy

Frattlaw, read the post right above yours. I already apologized.

ElectricEye

...which is why I look at toners more suspiciously in any holder other than PCGS (and even with #1, I still evaluate it carefully). One trip to the Long Beach Show gave me plenty of examples of AT and overgraded coins in respected holders.

From a collector purist point of view, what the mechanic did is sad. From a business perspective, quite natural.

dorkkarl

wowzer, i mean WOWZERS!!!

what a way to make a living.

no way can this be considered "curating", since the color was changed. for me, it is a as disgusting a story as i've heard on this forum.

i doubt the coin posse would touch this w/ a 10 foor pole, however. i mean geez, metal wasn't move, right? right???

K S

3Legs

My personal opinion is that getting rid of carbon spots is one thing and may be considered an attempt to save the coin from further
coverage of additional spots. In other words "saving it's life". You might say this is moving the coin back in time to a previous condition
that it actually existed in. Adding color is another thing altogether & was never part of the coins natural history.

EvilMCT

Of course it's wrong. There is no gray area here based on the story presented.

Ken

Theop

Maybe this is more of a comment on why it is probably not a good idea for to be willing to pay $5000 for a coin in a 64 slab and $19000 for a coin in a 65 slab given the inherent subjectiveness of grading.

While I agree that it is unethical to alter a coin in a way that is designed to deceive a later buyer, what if there were no "mechanic" in the story but just a scenario where somewhat bought a PCGS 64 coin and then after multiple resubmissions got it upgraded to a 65 at NGC? I am sure this happens all the time. It should serve as a lesson that if you are buying the 65 for $19000 there is a good chance the coin used to be "only" a 64 and/or bought/sold previously for a fraction of its current "value".

poorguy

Theop, you da man. You couldn't have said it better.

Barry

<< <i>Maybe this is more of a comment on why it is probably not a good idea for to be willing to pay $5000 for a coin in a 64 slab and $19000 for a coin in a 65 slab given the inherent subjectiveness of grading. >>


BINGO!

dorkkarl

<< <i>Maybe this is more of a comment on why it is probably not a good idea for to be willing to pay $5000 for a coin in a 64 slab and $19000 for a coin in a 65 slab given the inherent subjectiveness of grading. >>

i don't think it's a question of "subjectivity", once it was doctored, it basically became an altogether different coin.

K S

3Legs

<< <i>Maybe this is more of a comment on why it is probably not a good idea for to be willing to pay $5000 for a coin in a 64 slab and $19000 for a coin in a 65 slab given the inherent subjectiveness of grading >>



Excellent point!

JadeRareCoin

what if there were no "mechanic" in the story but just a scenario where somewhat bought a PCGS 64 coin and then after multiple resubmissions got it upgraded to a 65 at NGC?

Good point. I have long held the opinion that a that is submitted 9 times at MS-64, then hits MS-65 on the tenth submission, is really just an MS-64.1. Let's see them put that on the slab!

The part of the story that rattled my cage is the part about the "enhancing" that was done to the coin by the dealer. How many doctored coins are floating around top tier slabs? Some will say, "well, if the experts can't tell that it's doctored, then it's probably okay". What happened in the story is very real and probably happens often. I have personally witnessed similar situations a few times. It's a real dilemma.

dorkkarl

ttt

Barry

Karl,
You get some Crazy Glue stuck to your finger while on the "t" key?