I think I'm done with high grade PSA vintage cards...
Virtualizard
Posts: 1,936 ✭✭
... How is this card a PSA 10?????? Based on my recent submissions, I'd be lucky to get a PSA 8 on this card. I'm getting more and more frustrated with this every day. Hey, at least I'm saving a lot of money! 
JEB.
JEB.
0
Comments
Sorry for the rant.
JEB.
Win
nah no 11z hehe
"All evil needs to triumph is for good men to do nothing."
Collect primarily 1959-1963 Topps Baseball
set registry id Don Johnson Collection
ebay id truecollector14
Collect primarily 1959-1963 Topps Baseball
set registry id Don Johnson Collection
ebay id truecollector14
Keep in mind this is all 1960's vintage cards
30698081 PSA 9
30698082 PSA 9
30698083 PSA 9
30698084 PSA 9
30698085 PSA 10
30698086 PSA 9
30698087 PSA 10
30698088 PSA 9
30698089 PSA 10
30698090 PSA 9
30698091 PSA 9
30698092 PSA 9
30698093 PSA 9
30698094 PSA 9
30698095 PSA 9
30698102 PSA 9
30698103 PSA 9
30698104 PSA 9
30698105 PSA 9
30698106 PSA 9
30698107 PSA 9
30698108 PSA 8
30698109 PSA 8
30698110 PSA 9
30698111 PSA 9
30698112 PSA 10
30698113 PSA 9
30698114 PSA 8
30698115 PSA 8
30698116 PSA 8
30698117 PSA 8
30698118 PSA 8
30698119 PSA 10
30698120 PSA 8
30698121 PSA 10
30698122 PSA 9
See guys, PSA didn't forget how to give out vintage 9's and 10's.... they just like to keep them all in the same family.
Yea, Yea, I know.... his loop must be clearer than mine, and I'm just whining.
Collect primarily 1959-1963 Topps Baseball
set registry id Don Johnson Collection
ebay id truecollector14
While its not perfectly centered, according the PSA 10 Gem Mint standards it doesn't have to be. It can be up to 60/40 off on the front. The card appears to be within that tolerance, and the corners look amazing, and the color and registry are beautiful, plus no print defects. Don't know what the back looks like, kind of odd he didn't show it.
I think its a really nice PSA 9 that as MCastaldi stated in another post "slipped through" to a higher grade. I'll bet the submitter had a couple that got under graded as well.
As for what price it goes for, I guess thats up to how badly someone wants it. I hear you though about the Clemente, it is a shame that a commons have the potential to eclipse high grade star HOF'r cards.
Scott Jeanblanc
jeanblanc@iconnect.net
Ebay UserId : sjeanblanc
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Collecting Nolan Ryan cards (68-94)
<< <i>... it is a shame that a commons have the potential to eclipse high grade star HOF'r cards. >>
Why? If there are only a few of a particular common, it seems completely reasonable that they should carry a higher price than any star card with hundreds of them around.
Scott
what gets me are the poorly centered 9s
that kill the smr and increase the pops.
The card looks like a 10 to me.
Say a 10 sells for five times what a 9 does.
Does that mean the 10 is five times better than the 9 ?
No, it means the 10 is five times rarer, but probably only very slightly better, if at all.
Same with 9's and 8's.
As to PSAs actual standards for grading, they're listed on the web site,
and after 7 million cards graded, it's a little late in the game to change them around ...
"How about a little fire Scarecrow ?"
1954
I would be happy to have this card in my collection.
By PSA standards this card is absolutly a gem mint 10.
By SGC and GAI this card would be a 9.5, but since PSA does not have the .5
their standards are a bit different. Again this to me is a super card.
Thanks H. Walker
As you saying that only a card centered exactly 50/50 both ways should merit a PSA10?
There's certainly nothing wrong with the spirit of your opinion, and there are a couple grading companies out there who can accomodate you. In their eyes, a 9.5 or 98 is "Gem Mint" and a 10 or 100 is "Perfect"
The way I see it, PSA10 DOES NOT equal Perfect. Everything I've heard from PSA on the matter is they never claim a PSA10 Gem Mint card to be perfect.
As for the "regardless of standards" part, when you look at a card to determine if it's overgraded you have to determine if it fully meets the standards for the grade assigned. If a card fully meets the standards for the assigned grade, then it's not overgraded. That doesn't mean it's a card you would be proud to own. But it would still deserve the grade on the holder. I think the "regardless of the standards" way of thinking is sort of a slippery slope. Grading is a subjective assessment and as it is, it'd damned tough to maintain consistency. By having no standards - or ignoring the ones in place - then forget any level of consistency. So if you really feel that a PSA10 should require 50/50 centering all around, then perhaps the better approach is to call Joe Orlando and suggest they revise the standard for a PSA10. As opposed to suggesting they ignore the standards in place. Myself, I want well-defined standards that are applied as consistently as possible.
Mike
I would any day rather own a perfectly centered PSA 8 Mantle than a PSA 10 Mantle which is diamond cut (as I see in a current auction) or a PSA 9 centered 60/40. Why waste the money?? I buy the card, not the holder. Unless, you are concerned about weight in the set registry. Then you might care less what the card looks like. It's possibly going in a box in a drawer.
I have a friend who buys perfectly centered HOFers from the 50's-60's in PSA 7 or 8 grade which at a distance in his sportsroom that look mint. He gets the beauty of the card at a fraction of the cost of a PSA 9 or 10 card.
Gem Mint to me means exactly what it implies. Gem Mint. Not Mint. Not Near Mint/Mint. But a perfect card in all respects. And that means perfect centering IMHO. And PSA 10 cards should be rare as hens' teeth to justify the lofty price that some collectors are willing to pay.
I have no problems with the grading standards. I just am stating my opinion of what a gem mint card should be.
GEM MINT, give me a break.
<< <i>I'm sorry I think most of you guys are crazy. >>
CHEW-
Please save us from your PRO-GAI Agenda.
Oh by the way...I never did hear from you regarding the 1953 Bowman Color Lockman GAI 8 that sold for about $4k less than its PSA 8 counterpart.
In addition...I missed your comments regarding the GAI 10 1952 Bowman Mantle that is up for public auction.
Unfortunately, despite all the guidelines, grading has a human, subjective element.
Always looking for 1957 Topps BB in PSA 9!
<< <i>
<< <i>I'm sorry I think most of you guys are crazy. >>
CHEW-
Please save us from your PRO-GAI Agenda.
Oh by the way...I never did hear from you regarding the 1953 Bowman Color Lockman GAI 8 that sold for about $4k less than its PSA 8 counterpart.
In addition...I missed your comments regarding the GAI 10 1952 Bowman Mantle that is up for public auction. >>
I have no agenda. I think if you read my post you will see that it was a pro PRO-PSA post.
Why would I answer you about a 1953 Bowman Color Lockman?
I also do not know about the 1952 Bowman Mantle, so i guess I can't address the card.
Thanks H. Walker
<< <i>
I also do not know about the 1952 Bowman Mantle, so i guess I can't address the card.
>>
It is the GAI 10 selling right now in the Mile High auction. Take a look at it. The centering is approximately 60-40 but it has a GAI 10 "perfect" label.
<< <i>I noticed all of his PSA 10's look like they came from the same submission, so I did a little cert searching and here's what this submission looks like:
Keep in mind this is all 1960's vintage cards
30698081 PSA 9
30698082 PSA 9
30698083 PSA 9
30698084 PSA 9
30698085 PSA 10
30698086 PSA 9
30698087 PSA 10
30698088 PSA 9
30698089 PSA 10
30698090 PSA 9
30698091 PSA 9
30698092 PSA 9
30698093 PSA 9
30698094 PSA 9
30698095 PSA 9
30698102 PSA 9
30698103 PSA 9
30698104 PSA 9
30698105 PSA 9
30698106 PSA 9
30698107 PSA 9
30698108 PSA 8
30698109 PSA 8
30698110 PSA 9
30698111 PSA 9
30698112 PSA 10
30698113 PSA 9
30698114 PSA 8
30698115 PSA 8
30698116 PSA 8
30698117 PSA 8
30698118 PSA 8
30698119 PSA 10
30698120 PSA 8
30698121 PSA 10
30698122 PSA 9
See guys, PSA didn't forget how to give out vintage 9's and 10's.... they just like to keep them all in the same family.
Yea, Yea, I know.... his loop must be clearer than mine, and I'm just whining. >>
That's amazing! I bet his correct guage % was about 90. My last one was about 75%...wrong (with a loupe.)
I too would rather own a perfectly-centered PSA8 Mantle than a diamond-cut PSA10 example. However, that doesn't necessarily mean the PSA10 doesn't deserve the grade - it's just a PSA10 I wouldn't want for my collection. I think you may have missed my point on this. There are two statements that aren't mutually exclusive. . .
If a card is in a PSA8 (or 9 or 10) holder, that doesn't mean I want to own that card.
Just because I don't want to own that card, that doesn't mean it's not worthty of the grade it received.
A card may meet PSA's standards for a grade, but ultimately a card has to meet MY standards for a grade.
Scoop> Sometimes you just run into a grader who seems to have his finger on the 9 button. When I see submissions like that, I wonder what that grader's frame of reference is for that particular issue. What he grades as 9s, are those cards 8s in the hands of another grader? I'd like to think that's not the case, since PSA's goal is to be consistent among graders. But as Mantlefan said, grading is a subjective endeavor.
Mike
Buy the card not the flip.
Silver Coins
e-bay ID: grilloj39
e-mail: grilloj39@gmail.com
To me, a PSA 10 should be a "perfect" card, with no imperfections, and 50-50 centering. If that means there are less 10's, so be it. The grade should be reserved for nothing but the best of the best.
Mike
Silver Coins
e-bay ID: grilloj39
e-mail: grilloj39@gmail.com
Mike
<< <i>Sorry Mike, I can't agree with you.
I would any day rather own a perfectly centered PSA 8 Mantle than a PSA 10 Mantle which is diamond cut (as I see in a current auction) >>
Al,
When you get that diamond cut 61 Mantle 10, let me know, and I'll see that I get a whole handful of perfectly centered 8's to trade for it.
IMO = In my opinion
IMHO = In my humble opinion
LOL = Laughing out loud
ROTFL = Rolling on the floor laughing
LSHIJWM = Laughed so hard I just wet myself
IIHPAISIWHLHTSATIWHTUAOTRA = If I had paid attention in school I would have learned how to spell and then I wouldn't have to use all of these ridiculous acronyms.
I believe mostly everyone on this board has gone through the same jealous streak. We think that OUR cards, all things being equal, are just as good, if not better, than somebody else's who might have "received" a higher grade...but WE received the grader of death and they did not. I have gone through this process myself. Only recently I have opined on these boards that the ratio of PSA 9's and 10's I have received have been lower than in the past, and I have probably received several hundred PSA 10 grades on vintage cards. All MINT and GEM MINT cards look the same, with a few possible exceptions. The PSA 10 1952 Bowman Mantle that I had about 8 years ago wasn't "perfect", but it was REALLY NICE and received the grade of GEM MINT 10.
As an aside, I will have a few vintage PSA 10's up on EBAY this week, and a lot of PSA 9's which look like 10's...so keep the bidding active.
I think we all get too consumed with "low pop's" and GEM MINT cards, which guide us away from the collecting aspect of the hobby, and into the MONEY aspect. I know all collector's have a substantial monetary stake in their collection's, and they would eventually like to see their collection's increase in value, especially when they attempt to sell. But I feel that most of us on these boards try to "keep up with the Branca's and Fogel's" that we don't collect for our own enjoyment, but for the money (and especially ego) aspect. We are all guilty of this, and we began to gravitate this way ONLY since "professional grading" has entered the hobby. I believe this factor clouds our judgment. Is a PSA 8 really that much better than a centered PSA 7, other someone who we don't know thinks that it is (ie: the grader), and that it is worth more? Remember that 52 Bowman Mantle in PSA 10 I mentioned earlier? That is the one card I wish I had back. Not for the aesthetic reasons, but because now it is worth substantially more! To me, and my raw collection, a well centered PSA 6 which looks like an 8, only for the sake of a light wrinkle on the reverse, has great eye appeal.
I agree with many on this board who say, "buy the card...not the holder". But many of us who really need that PSA 8 will bid higher, even if the card doesn't look all that nice...because it is in a PSA 8 holder. For example, a few months ago I submitted a NM-MT 1971 #577 Jim Lonborg, which was really sharp and very well centered. It was assigned the grade of PSA 8, as is rightfully should. I listed the cards on EBAY among a few dozen high grade 71's, all in PSA 8 (except for the #536 Claude Raymond which received a grade of PSA 7...which really burned me up, but that story is for another day).
I have been in this hobby since the mid 70's (I will turn 40 this year) and attended my first card store the same day since Bucky Dent hit the home run against Boston in 1978, and have been a full-time card dealer for about 10 years. I really believe this "professionally graded" card business has hurt the hobby, and completely altered the landscape...and I submit thousands of cards per year! That is because the demand is so high. Most collector's who now buy PSA cards are recent collector's who likely have not learned the in's and out's how to spot "trimmed or altered" cards, nor do they care to learn. They are busy professionals who would rather pay the premium for an unbiased third party's opinion. I understand and completely respect that view. But, you can be an unbeliever if you want to, but is precisely the reason there are probably more altered cards now in the hobby (residing in slabs), than there were BEFORE professional grading. That is because the stakes (ie: dollars) are so high. Just reread the comments on another board Mike Wentz uttered several weeks ago.
Sorry if my ramblings offended anyone, as they were not meant to poitn fingers, hurt anybody or to ridicule any collection. I do believe that card collecting is a fantastic hobby, to which I also earn a portion of my income. I have literally viewed and graded zillions (how many zero's is that?) of sportscards and these views are only of someone who has been in the hobby for almost 30 years. I believe the card grading companies owe it to educate the collector on how to spot an altered card. Maybe a symposium and workshop could be set up at the National. The first day could be "trimming 101" at 10 AM, followed by "erasing 202" at 11, with a luch break before resuming with "recoloring 303" at 2 PM.
By the way...what was this thread about...oh, yes, the 1960 Topps Tony Curry in PSA 10. I think the reverse HAS to be perfectly centered.
I AM WITH YOU 100%. YOU HAVE REALLY CAPTURED THE ESSENCE OF THE GRADING VS THE COLLECTING ASPECTS OF THE HOBBY. RON HOBBS, TALLAHASEE, FLA.
Again, I agree that this is a very nice looking card, but I'm still looking for much better in a PSA 10. High grade vintage commons are the biggest losing propositions out there, especially PSA 10s.
I'm sorry that I posted this, but I won't edit anything because I believe it initiated some intelligent conversation.
I think Joe summed it up best with this:
...I really believe this "professionally graded" card business has hurt the hobby, and completely altered the landscape...and I submit thousands of cards per year! That is because the demand is so high. Most collector's who now buy PSA cards are recent collector's who likely have not learned the in's and out's how to spot "trimmed or altered" cards, nor do they care to learn. They are busy professionals who would rather pay the premium for an unbiased third party's opinion...
Thanks for the honest take on what the hobby has become. I could not agree more, and I'll even admit to being one of those collectors who has been willing to pay the premium for high grade vintage because it's convenient.
JEB.
i dont agree with everything you said but nevertheless you made a very well thought out post about the hobby and proffesional grading.
PSA became what it is today because a demand was created by collectors and dealers. Given the amount of internet transactions even an experience collector needs an unbaised assesment of the card.
Just like capitalism, PSA is not perfect but it is simply the best alternative.
in theory grading its not an evil thing, nor the registry for that matter.
where would the hobby be today without proffesional grading?
Groucho Marx