Do Dealers Get Preferential Grading Treatment - NO
grilloj39
Posts: 370 ✭✭
I recently had a discussion with a dealer about this issue. I do not believe this is the case for several reasons:
1) Dealers submit in bulk: If I make a 20 card submission, there may be a card that may "slide" through the grading process (in other words the grade is higher than I thought). Some cards are lower than my expectations and some may be about right, but we never complain about the one that "slides" through. An example is my recent post about 1971 Topps Hockey. Now I stated my Gilbert, Ratelle, and Perreault cards came back lower than expected, but my Eddie Shack came back as a "9". I thought this card would grade 7-8 at the highest. So if a dealer makes a 1000 card submission, the law of averages dictates they are going to get more "sliders" then someone like me. So questions arise, "how do the dealers get all the 8s and 9s", etc, etc.
1A) If dealers submit in bulk then they are going to end up with a lot of lower grade cards, mid-grade cards, and more high-grade cards. They are always going to have more high grade cards in their inventory versus someone like me.
2) Dealers have more contacts, accept consignments, etc. As such, they are going to "get their hands on" more 8s and 9s then someone like me who just buys from dealers, surfs the e-bay website, and goes to a show whenever I have time. Remember, it's a full-time job for these guys and gals, that's how they make a living, put food on the table, send their kids to college, etc. Their livelihood depends on getting their hands on the high grade cards for their clientele.
3) I have always felt that it would be the demise of any grading company to offer preferential treatment to anyone and that information somehow being made pubic.
This issue is blown what out of proportion at times. Could it have happened or does it happen from time to time...maybe, but this is the exception rather than the rule IMO.
1) Dealers submit in bulk: If I make a 20 card submission, there may be a card that may "slide" through the grading process (in other words the grade is higher than I thought). Some cards are lower than my expectations and some may be about right, but we never complain about the one that "slides" through. An example is my recent post about 1971 Topps Hockey. Now I stated my Gilbert, Ratelle, and Perreault cards came back lower than expected, but my Eddie Shack came back as a "9". I thought this card would grade 7-8 at the highest. So if a dealer makes a 1000 card submission, the law of averages dictates they are going to get more "sliders" then someone like me. So questions arise, "how do the dealers get all the 8s and 9s", etc, etc.
1A) If dealers submit in bulk then they are going to end up with a lot of lower grade cards, mid-grade cards, and more high-grade cards. They are always going to have more high grade cards in their inventory versus someone like me.
2) Dealers have more contacts, accept consignments, etc. As such, they are going to "get their hands on" more 8s and 9s then someone like me who just buys from dealers, surfs the e-bay website, and goes to a show whenever I have time. Remember, it's a full-time job for these guys and gals, that's how they make a living, put food on the table, send their kids to college, etc. Their livelihood depends on getting their hands on the high grade cards for their clientele.
3) I have always felt that it would be the demise of any grading company to offer preferential treatment to anyone and that information somehow being made pubic.
This issue is blown what out of proportion at times. Could it have happened or does it happen from time to time...maybe, but this is the exception rather than the rule IMO.
0
Comments
#4: Because they submit so many cards, dealers develop a really good eye for what cards will grade well. It only makes sense that if you submit thousands of cards, you will get a better feel for what will grade a 7 and what will grade an 8 or 9. You learn to spot the tiny hairline creases, the slight diamond-cuts that make a card OC at the bottom, and the off-center backs. You learn that if you see the slightest little lift at a corner, you've got yourself a 7.
#5: Dealers avoid submitting marginal cards, because it's not worth it financially. If I have a common that I think is borderline 7/8, I don't submit it. If it comes back an 8, I make $15 on it. If it comes back a 7, I lose money. Considering those odds, it's not worth the time it takes me to submit the card. I submit only commons that I'm sure will make a minimum grade--typically an 8--and even then, like everyone else, I miss some.
Mike
Vintage Football Card Gallery
Scott
Most prudent people, dealers or not, would not do what you're hypothesizing unless they are (a) stupid, (b) have money to burn or (c) conducting a test, the results of which are to be published in the next issue of SGC-today.
Come on, Scott. Stick to the script and stop throwing out bombs. You may end up like Davalillo someday (banned , but without the 100 sets).
It is interesting that on one hand PSA is criticized because the people grading the cards are unknown. On the other hand that is a good thing because it would be difficult to discuss issues with a specific grader in hopes of obtaining a higher grade.
In the past there have been many conflicts of interest that apparently have influenced the grades. The David Hall collection and grading by Alan Hager are two immediate examples that come to my mind. If somebody is the friend of the head grader who is to say if they are getting preferential treatment?
Probably the only people who know for certain if dealers are getting preferential treatment are the people on the inside. From an outsider perspective I can only speculate and guess.
By and large, a "bulk dealer" could care less about whether a card is a "high-end 8" or simply a 7 that was misgraded as an 8. These dealers play percentages and use their volume to their advantage. They know that a certain number of cards will come back 9s, another percentage will come back 8s, and so on. Most bulk dealers will only care about maximizing these percentages up to a point. Because beyond that, it's not cost effective for them to spend the time meticulously poring over each and every card they plan to submit. It's not that these dealers will submit just anything, but at the same time meticulously looking through cards you are considering for submission and weeding out the inferior cards is a time-intensive proposition. Most dealers will make their money on the 8s and 9s and whatever they can get for the mid-grade stuff is a bonus.
Obviously, if you're interested in the card and not the holder then you won't take this approach. But generally, dealers get about the same price whether it's a "9 in an 8 holder" or a "7 in an 8 holder".
grillo> I generally agree with your conclusions but tend to approach it from a different way.
-- Say I submit 1000 cards per year and get 20 cards that I consider to be "optimistically graded".
-- Say a large-volume submitter submits 30,000 cards per year and gets 600 cards that would be "sliders".
Does that dealer get preferential treatment because he gets 580 more cards with grades in his favor? I don't think so. In both cases, the "sliders" make up the same percentage of cards - 2%. Grading is a subjective assessment of cards. So long as the subjective assessment is consistent from one order to another and one customer to another, that's all I can ask.
Mike
Silver Coins
e-bay ID: grilloj39
e-mail: grilloj39@gmail.com
Hello All,
I can remember, being a former PSA customer myself, hearing the rumors over and over again about dealers getting preferential treatment. It was a very common topic.
Even I was curious...then I came to work here about 5 years ago. I can tell you this (not that you were expecting to hear differently) - the preferential treatment does not occur. In fact, the identifying marks that relate to the packages are removed before the orders are brought to the grading room.
We are in the process of developing a video for the site that, I think, will answer a ton of questions about the process. It will be something like "The Journey of a PSA Submission" so everyone can see what the process looks like from beginning to end. It will be hosted jointly by Dustin Diamond (of Saved by the Bell fame) Vin Diesel and Jennifer Aniston - just kidding about the actors.
Thanks for listening,
Joe Orlando
PSA President
CEO, Collectors Universe, Inc.
I'm sure you're right: there are dealers much bigger than I who can afford to be less choosy about what they submit. I'll bet they're choosier than you think, though. For someone with a lot of practice, it takes only a few seconds to decide between "looks like an 8" and "looks like a 7." There's no need to meticulously pore over most cards; you just have to learn what to look for.
Even for a bulk submitter--or maybe especially for a bulk submitter--taking 15 seconds to avoid a $5 grading fee would be worthwhile. If, after a few seconds of examination, a card looks like a 7, chances are slim that it's going to get an 8 or 9 from someone with a loupe, and it doesn't make much sense to submit it anyway. Maybe you'll get a few stray 8's out of a pile of "looks like a 7's," but the grading fees, even if discounted, will outweigh the premium that you get for 8's.
Mike
Vintage Football Card Gallery
For myself. . .in looking through my own cards for submittable examples, sure, I could spend only 15 seconds per card and weed out the stuff that wouldn't make an 8 or better. And I could get back 8s and 9s with no problem. However, it takes me a bit more time to go through the stack and end up with cards that I'd be proud to own. Perhaps this is one criteria that differentiates a dealer from a collector.
Mike
Joe - respectfully, a linked video on cards moving through the operation is a nice - feel good thing. Minimal investment with a positive valence. From what I read on the CU Forum, there are many within the customer base who are concerned with the consistancy of the evaluation of their investments, especially vintage and especially of late. What they may like to see is a post from you on your opinion, assessment and evaluation of this perceived issue. A view of "the process" on video is antisceptic.
Hobbyists are becoming more sophisticated and inquisitive. I don't think it should be left up to the die hard PSA'ers (no disrespect intended) on the forum to defend posts on perceived PSA grading issues, as many of them choose to do. That is their right and position. Yes, a lot of negativity is expected and indigenous to a service operation. But from what I see and read, objectivity, averages, legalize blah-blah surrounding the grading standards is getting old to many posters/customers. Of course, basis the anticipated rate of new customers vs the turnover of existing customers, maybe this is OK for the CU business enterprise to leave this type of customer feedback unaddressed.
With all due respect. DH.
But the big volumn dealer gets his submissions back, he quickly posts them on eBay to turn over the cards. No one questions the high end 8's that reside in the 8 holders, but the low end 8's stand out as if a crime has been committed. But in actuallity, its the same standards as the hobbyist rec'd. Just another viewpoint...jay
Website: http://www.qualitycards.com
Mike
<< <i>When the dealer sends you a 7 in an 8 holder >>
MIKE - After viewing the scan, do not bid w/ something you'll be less then happy to own, or deal w/ a seller who takes returns..jay
Website: http://www.qualitycards.com
Mike
Groucho Marx
<< <i>Jay> Sound advice, but as you know the quality of scans can vary widely >>
MIKE, I agree 100%, but why is it when someone shows a scan of an eBay auction of an "over-graded" card, few use this logic?
Website: http://www.qualitycards.com
This topic comes up because we see the same large dealers (no names needed) always selling the high grade PSA 9's and 10's on Ebay, and it is easy to come up with the conclusion that because they are such big customers of PSA that they would need to have some financial incentive to remain as such. I am starting to agree that they just have more / better quality raw inventory than I could ever have access to, and am willing to leave it at that.
Mike
I recently bought a lot of off graded 1964 Topps Baseball PSA's w/ qualifiers and grades as
low as 5 & 6. So they submit a ton and hope for the best. The bigger question is not that they submit
a ton of cards, its why the hell did I buy off grade '64's? ...jay
Website: http://www.qualitycards.com
(95) 1969 TOPPS BASEBALL PSA GRADED LOT!
Mike
S.
(j/k Jay)
Website: http://www.qualitycards.com
I think you misunderstood my post. My point was I've never bought a card from you that wasn't worthy of its grade. You're not sitting on a ton of sliders. I don't understand why people won't trust even you when you say there's no preferential grading. You're the most honest guy here.
I think PSA ridding itself of Superior was a very intelligent move. That was where the greatest conflict of interest showed.
If dealers got preferential grading, how would they sell a card? If I receive a turd of a card from a dealer, it goes straight back.
I think we should put this one to rest for now. Remember, graders aren't clones. They differ. Your cards can be graded by different people at different times. I like to spread cards out or do larger submissions so I have a mix of graders. I think things balance out better. Nobody knows when their cards are graded. Your submission might be graded directly after the most pristine batch of cards from the same year ever sent in. Then, you would suffer. If we could all name our grades, the cards would have zero value. It's a game. People seem to be missing the point. You're not collecting plastic slabs. You're collecting baseball cards. A subjective number shouldn't detract from your pleasure. If you feel totally violated, wait a few weeks and resubmit or set up an appointment. I'd rather have any PSA 5 than a card Mr. Mint deems to be excellent.
Best,
S.
Website: http://www.qualitycards.com
<< <i>You're collecting baseball cards. A subjective number shouldn't detract from your pleasure. If you feel totally violated, wait a few weeks and resubmit ... >>
Scumbi, if I may chime in here briefly ...
I do not, for one second, believe that big time dealer submitters get any sort of preferential treatment on grading. As you noted, this would wash out fairly quickly. They get lower submission rates, due to submitting tons of cards, and that is completely reasonable. But I believe that PSA takes great measures to ensure that a card is a card regardless of who that card came from.
That said, the issue of concern to me still is more one of consistency in standards for what represents a PSA 7 and PSA 8 for vintage commons in grading during the last several months. Big time dealer submitters might not even notice it as they just submit, submit, submit -- and sell whatever they happen to get -- both stars and commons. But the small time dealer like me DOES notice it. My working capital is a lot less and my margin is a lot lower than that of big time dealer submitters. Still, I should be able to do a better job of pre-submission screening of cards, similar to the collector submitting his own cards. And I believe I do that and I have the historical evidence to prove it.
Is cracking and resubmitting an option? Sure it is. But if the de facto standard for a PSA 8 has changed (whether on purpose or by circumstance) to something that's actually higher than the written PSA 8 standard, the odds are that a resubmitted PSA 7 will come back a PSA 7. Right?
Scott
Stop agreeing with me. I'm nuts.
Scott,
I think there are too many variables to draw a conclusion. Could some of your cards have been 8s? Yes. Were they kept down to keep the curve? We'll never know. Is there a different grading standard now? Maybe. The point is "It's completely subjective". You cannot fight a system built on such nebulous guidelines. You either have to embrace it or try another grading company. I've submitted cards elsewhere and have eaten the fees and switched them back to PSA (Sometimes at a lower grade) because I like all my cards to be slabbed in the same holders and I want to participate in the Registry. I found the other companies to be less consistent. Many times there was no rhyme or reason for the grades I received. I believe PSA is +/- 1 grade on 99% of all the submissions. But, I choose to collect tougher issues where lower grades don't make or break me. You've chosen to buy, grade and sell cards from sets with intense competition. People aren't submitting 60's Topps commons looking for anything below a 7 or 8. Thus, the graders only see top-notch cards. Nobody needs a basic 1961 common in PSA 4. For this reason, there has to be greater scrutiny paid. You can't have 1000 of a specific card graded with 80% at 8s if you want the cards graded 8 to keep their value. So, either you're going to have to change your game plan or focus on other card sets to make a living. I can't imagine that making a living selling baseball cards is easy. However, every profession has its own obstacles. I write comedy. The Networks don't want sit-coms anymore. I can keep trying to write them or I can try drama, features or cable and continue to eat and wear clothing. I don't think it's fair, but the Networks aren't losing any sleep over it. If specific people were receiving all the PSA 8s, you would have something tangible to rail against. However, I truly believe the graders are not aware of card ownership. It might help you to vent here, but it's akin to taking out full page ads saying Las Vegas is unfair after you've lost your money. Except in Las Vegas they're not afraid to deal out an 8 from time to time.
S.
<< <i>Stop agreeing with me. I'm nuts >>
SCUMBI - I agree 100%
Website: http://www.qualitycards.com