A few comments on auction companies.

GOLDSAINT

I though I might solicit some additional comments on current auctions to see if all of you were seeing some of the things I am seeing.
As all the prices on coins continue to go to the moon it seems that many collectors are paying through the nose just to close a deal.
I have been bidding on a few common coins on Heritage just to finish up the final holes in my sets, and yesterday I bid on the final piece I needed to finish up my Kennedy’s, a 2001 silver proof MS 69 DCAM. I watched as the high bidder paid $59.80 for that coin. On ebay this morning I ran a check on these and there were many coins in the same slab and grade bid at $10 to $15 dollars with buy-it-now’s for $29.00, half the price. I have seen this a great deal over the last few weeks on many other issues.
One other thing I have encountered is that many of the large auction companies have changed their policy for submitting coins to be certified through their companies. Where last year many would submit your coins at their discounted price they are now charging full rates unless you agree to consign. I think this is an error on their part, as it would seem that building customer relations for future consignments would be in their best interests?

BAJJERFAN

I would just bid on eBay listings then. When you see what a place like Heritage hauls to major shows plus has a booth on the bourse there in addition to all of the display rooms AND the stuff I get in the mail a couple times a week its easy to see why their costs are so high.

GOLDSAINT

This thread is NOT a comment on how high the overhead is at Heritage; everyone can see that their monthly nut is through the roof. It is a comment on the desperation of current collectors to buy those coins at any price! Even in common coins there seems to be a sentiment that the world is running out, and I need to buy these at whatever price I can. This is the attitude that always occurs just before the bubble breaks? It appears that the attitude of many collectors is that “ I don’t have time to shop around because this is the last coin to be offered of this type” The example I used is not big money to many but most smaller collectors should not be paying double the price to build their collections.
In fact from some of the other recent posts on rarities it appears this is also happening in that area.

JrGMan2004

<< <i>most smaller collectors should not be paying double the price to build their collections. >>

Fragmentum

I have seen auction houses ask some pretty high numbers for coins they grade in mint state. Prices are 'bid' high and 'buy it now' high. Compare these to completed winning bids on ebay and you see a giant spread in the slabbed mint state and proof grades. This is from Heritage, American Numismatic Rarities and others online.
Take an 1878 8 tail feather Morgan PCGS MS64 as a comparison coin.... Prices at $300 to $500 to buy, $80 to bid.... This coin in this grade from PCGS is all over the map in this hot market!

Barry

Last coin bid I've won from a major auction house was 11/03. I know what I'm willing to pay. Maybe a mistake. Time will tell.

BAJJERFAN

Well the higher overhead would at least partly explain their modified attitude towards submissions thru them. As to why bidders bid stupid money thru Heritage but not eBay is anyone's guess. Perhaps their customer base contains more of the serious collectors than does eBay.

meos1

Knowing that there will be advances and retractions in any market frames my position. If one area is so frenzied that I feel uncomfortable I shift to a cooler area. No reason in paying moon money for a modern Kennedy. Yes, I feel the overall market is brisk in activity and this does create the demand that drives up prices. I think most of this is due to a influx of collectors who do not have a proper frame of reference for pricing at grade. As far as Heritage or other, I view them as a premier retailer of numismatic inventory and expect the prices to be as such. If I am searching for the top pop coin of a series I would be looking there. I find that patience will yeild acceptable examples that are reasonably priced. I generally look at BST first, rarely look at ebay, and perfer to select pieces from a "in-hand" perspective.

Dan Watson

GOLDSAINT

All good comments, thanks for your posts. Like many of you my major auction purchases, and now bids, have slowed way down in the past 6 months, on heritage in particular. I got to where I was adding 10% to their suggested retail quotes and still lost every bid. Someone said here the other day that they bid 5 times trends and won their bid, well I guess I am not ready to do that. I am not bidding on super rarities where the prices can always go way beyond quoted prices, so it seemed reasonable to me that paying 10% over what Heritage said was full retail, and well beyond their last sales quotes should have won some of the bids.
I also hate to admit it but last night I got a little sucked into this, ridiculous panic of “ it’s the last one”. The Kennedy I used as an example I bid up to $48.00 with the buyer’s premium and drop out. I bought the buy it now for $29.00 this morning.

BAJJERFAN, yes sir perhaps your right, they just need to make a little more money to cover their overheads, but I think it is interesting that we all know that recieve big discounts on slabs so why not pass them on to their potential customers?

Veep

Prices have gotten so high in the areas in which I'm interested that I have not bought a coin for my collection in months. In fact, I've been selling some of my coins that have appreciated the most. I'll buy coins if I can get them at the right price to re-sell but have not been successful in recent auctions. For a part-time trader, I can afford to not buy coins. I'd be scared as heck to be a dealer right now; having to pay top dollar for coins in order to generate some revenue. At some point, the party will be over and there will be dealers taking big losses on some of their inventory.

GOLDSAINT

Veep, this is very interesting outlook, and you made a good observation, about dealers. Coin dealers are so much different than regular business people that sell retail, that is with the exception of auctioneers that don’t own most of what they sell, smaller retail dealers are constantly paying higher prices to keep going in a hot market. A regular retailer has wholesale products and some saying power if things slow down. He can just try to hold on since most of his inventory won’t get any cheaper. A coin dealer cannot only have a business slow down, he can also end up with a devastating loss in the value of his inventory. Today with the Internet any bad news would spread like wildfire and lots of smaller dealers would start to unload, causing further market damage. This is a crazy business in a white-hot market, its like running in front of a train.

newport

I did a small test a while back. I picked 10 coins of the exact same grade in PCGS holders, I got the current closing prices from both Ebay and Heritage. I found that over all it was about the same. Some coins very cheap on Heritage, while the same coin on Ebay was out of sight. It worked the same the other way around. If you are talking about a "National" Signature Sales, yes, Heritage bid prices will be much higher. You can find crazy prices on either side.

BAJJERFAN

One big difference between eBay and Heritage is that on Heritage you usually don't know who is bidding or ultimately their motive. On eBay the winning bidder is immediately known and one can sometimes guess if they are a collector or reseller. I have only paid strong money in a Heritage a couple times for scarce or very nice for the grade coins. In the one case that strong money will soon prove to be a bargain if this center of the sun hot market keeps going.

GOLDSAINT

Here is another interesting piece of news just in from a reliable source.
If you are a PCGS diehard fan and you want your coins submitted by Heritage you must insist they go to PCGS. Heritage claims they are the largest submitter to PCGS, NGC, and ANACS. Where as little as six months ago all non-problem coins went to PCGS it now seems that it does not. It seems that many at Heritage now believe that NGC prices realized, and the quality of grading at NGC, is now comparable to PCGS, and they will make internal determination of where YOUR coins are sent to be graded if you do not insist on PCGS.

dorkkarl

difficult to compare ebay to heritage. w/ heritage, coins might cost more, but at least theoretically, maybe your saving the time it takes to wade through through the ebay cesspool of filth & garbage coins. ie if it takes me 2 hours to find a coin on ebay, that on heritage would only take me 15 min's, it might be worth my time to just bid in the danged heritage auction.

i don't waste my time on ebay any more, but i seldom buy from heritage either. when i do, it's almost always a die variety that i'm interested in. so in that regard, the grade/price thing doesn't matter much to me.

time was when i'd look for varieties on ebay too, but like i said, it's not worth drowning in the ebay cesspool for me to once in a rare while find something useful.

1 last thought, heritage lives & dies by the plastic. i simply don't believe that any co. that does so can possibly charge "reasonable" prices.

K S