The 1898 Barber half grading contest is over, winner named and a few thoughts.
barberlover
Posts: 2,228 ✭✭
I have a good idea for a guess the split grade of a coin I'm the leading bidder on in the upcoming Heritage auction and I want to relate it to the q & a question I asked David as well as his answer.
In order to do this, I need someone to post both the obverse & reverse images of the 1898 barber half graded m.s. 64 by pcgs in th Central States signature sale and underneath it to cut & paste my question & Davids answer.
Then I'd like split guesses as to what people would individually grade both sides of the coin. Obviously, this won't work unless someone helps me out.
Les
In order to do this, I need someone to post both the obverse & reverse images of the 1898 barber half graded m.s. 64 by pcgs in th Central States signature sale and underneath it to cut & paste my question & Davids answer.
Then I'd like split guesses as to what people would individually grade both sides of the coin. Obviously, this won't work unless someone helps me out.
Les
The President claims he didn't lie about taxes for those earning less then $250,000 a year with public mandated health insurance yet his own justice department has said they will use the right of the government to tax when the states appeals go to court.
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Comments
Question from Les:
David, how does pcgs come to a grade on a coin with two sides that are at least 3 grades apart? An example of what I mean is a coin who's obverse looks mint state 65 and who's reverse looks 62, how does pcgs grade such a coin ? Do you average out the two sides and call it a 63 or 64 ? or do you say that the coin is only as good as it's poorest side and call it a 62 ?
Answer from David Hall:
Hi Les, it's pretty rare for a coin to have two sides that are three grades apart. When that happens, the coin will usually get the lowest side grade or if the eye appeal is special it might get one grade over the lowest side. it helps if the lowest side is the reverse.
Let me know if you need me to cut/paste anything....
Dave
Thanks, Les
Now I can start the thread I intended to.
Let me make the first guess, well actually me answer was revealed in my question to David. In my opionion based on the images [which is a very inaccurate way to judge a coin] I'd say the coin is a split grade of 65/62 and I can't imagine a better grade for the reverse based on wat I see. Now David says if the Obverse is nicer, the reverse might get a 1 point bump in grade, so lets here your guesses on the split grade of this coin.
Les
O.K. people, listen up !!!!
I went to alot of trouble to put this thread together with some help from Dave 99 B so heres what I'm gonna do.
If 20 people [at least] respond to this thread not counting the 6 thats just me & Dave going back & forth putting the thread together I'm gonna offer a prize for the responce I like the best. A type date I.H.C. in 64 pcgs r&b thats mostly red with barber lover type quality for eye appeal & luster or a casheirs check for 55 dollars [winners choice]. You can only enter 1 time & their must be 20 real answers, not like saying "count me in" or "me to".
So lets here from you what you think the split grade of this coin is & why you feel that way, also how do you feel about David saying "this rarely happens".
This contest is open till Sunday night at 10 pm Central Time. At that point entries are closed and if I have at least 20 different people entering by then I will pick a winner, if not, no prize.
Les
Obv - MS65
Rev - MS63
My posts viewed
since 8/1/6
Heritage scans make their coins look real lack luster, so you need to tweak their scans a bit to augment color, brightness and contrast. When you do that the reverse looks much lighter than it does on their website.
To me the funny thing about this coin is that the reverse seems to have the grey tone that comes from dipping a coin that had been deeply toned in dark shades. The rim toning could be from re-toning. But the obverse does not look dipped to me--it seems to have original skin. But it may still have been dipped and retoned. Or the comparatively dark appearance of the reverse could just be poor scan quality.
The obverse may have a couple of marks on the face that do not show clearly on the scan, or they may just be minor luster breaks--I just can't tell--you'd need to tilt the coin and tilting my computer monitor just doesn't seem to do the trick.
In the final analysis, I can see this as a 64. Now mind you I am not a Baber guy and I am basing this on how I'd grade an O mint Morgan that was pretty much free of bag marks but that has that soft Nawlins strike and is lacking in cartwheel luster. Its just too mark free to go 63, and the obverse strike looks real good.
CG
Edited to wonder: could they have paired a new obverse die with a worn reverse die?
Because the obverse carries 80-90% of the grade, I would net grade this as a 64 because the obverse is good enough but the reverse isn't annoying enough to really make me drop the grade by much.
Luster and/or toning, or the lack thereof, can indeed raise the overall appeal of a coin, and may therefore heave the overall grade by a point. In some cases, though, such as a rare coin, the eye appeal should not influence the grade of the coin. With a rare coin, however, the quality of the coin should be graded strictly by the condition of the coin, and not be influenced by the appeal of the coin. If the rare coin does indeed have good eye appeal, the rarity of the coin and the combined eye appeal will probably bring in enough profit to equal the same coin that is one grade higher with no real eye appeal.
I am not a fan of most toning, so my grades on the above Barber quarter are biased. I will, however, try to take into account of the eye appeal the quarter may have to other people. A coin with good eye appeal to me is one that has the look like it is fresh off of the minting press. Ignoring the toning as best as I can, and trying to pay attention to the surface details (as the dark toning gets “in my way”), I feel the obverse of the quarter is superb. “LIBERTY” clearly stands out, and the strands of hair are well defined. The stars are sharp and bold, and the rim appears to have no marks at all, and for 106 years old, the open fields are relatively clear of any marks. I give the obverse of this quarter a solid Mint State 66.
The reverse of this quarter appears to be darker than the obverse, though I think this is an effect of lighting, due to the fact that the plastic of the holder appears to be slightly darker. The rim appears to be in as good as a condition as the obverse, and the fields just as clear. The stars, however, do not appear to be as sharp and bold as the ones on the obverse, and the lower ones appear to have some wear. The shield on the eagle’s chest is worn quite well on the lower part, and some of the horizontal bars have light wear on the right hand side. The bars running vertically seem to be gone in several places, and there appears to be a few light abrasions on the lower part of the shield. The feathers below the shield also appear to be worn a bit smooth, as does the center of the tail feathers. The leg and talon on the right hand side of the shield is worn enough that almost no detail of the claws show. The feathers on the end of the arrows, just below the talon are also very worn. I give the reverse of this quarter a Mint State 63.
To me, this quarter does not have much eye appeal, as the only toning I really like is even coverage that doesn’t look like a crackled painting, but graders shouldn’t be biased as such. Bumping this quarter’s grade up from a MS-63 to MS-64 is certainly not out of the question considering the eye appeal it will have for most numismatics. The hazy-blue and orange toning around parts of the rim on the obverse could become beautiful in due time, and the orange-like rim toning on the reverse could show up extremely well later in the coins life.
Obverse: MS-66
Reverse: MS-63
Overall: MS-64
<< <i>So lets here from you what you think the split grade of this coin is & why you feel that way, also how do you feel about David saying "this rarely happens". >>
BarberLover: Even though you stated that this coin is graded PCGS MS-64, and the fact that I'm not a Barber Specialist, based on the images of this Barber Half I'd give it an overall grade of MS-63.
My reasoning is that the obverse appears to have average eye appeal (very subjective) with some splotchy toning, and an abundance of light surface contact marks, and the reverse appears to have been "wiped" at one time due to the apparent luster contrast evident in the protected areas of the field around the eagle. I am actually surprised that PCGS gave this coin anything above an MS-63 grade.
I honestly feel that this coin technically grades MS-63 on the obverse and MS-62 on the reverse, with a correct technical grade of MS-63 if the obverse carries the reverse. However, in today's coin market the commercial grade is perhaps an MS-64 because of the popularity of the Barber half series.
This points out one of the problems with coin grading that have been mentioned numerous times on this forum -- grading services should only assign techinical grades, and not try to compensate for commercial market conditions.
As for DH's split grade comment: The grading services usually weigh Obverse grade 60% and Reverse grade 40%, so the obverse grade will usually drive the coin's grade if obverse & reverse are within 1 grade point fo one-another. It's hard for the reverse grade to carry the obverse, but a strong obverse grade can carry the reverse within 1 grading point range if the coin a one of those "on the line" between 2 grades.
Typically the lower grade side of the coin is the maximum final grade, just like a one-sided PL/DMPL or CAM/DCAM does not rate the full coin designation with either PCGS, NGC or ANACS. Sometimes a one-sided wonder, especially if it's the obverse side, will help to carry the reverse side up about 1/2 a grading point.
Stuart
Collect 18th & 19th Century US Type Coins, Silver Dollars, $20 Gold Double Eagles and World Crowns & Talers with High Eye Appeal
"Luck is what happens when Preparation meets Opportunity"
I suppose if the ones guessing closer to au are right I should hope I lose tonight. But I love the look of the obverse and the contrast in the look of the obverse and reverse really intrigues me.
keep up the guesses folks, looks like we'll pass 20 before Sunday night.
Les
Marc
I like the obverse and it is probably a mid range 65. I have problems with the reverse and I think my biggest problem is the picture. The reverse just doesn't look right... it almost looks as if that side was dipped and retoned. While I had my doubts about your question, I understand after seeing the pictures why it was asked. If I had a better picture, perhaps I would be more optimistic...reverse may only be in the 61-62 range and I base that primarily on what I see in the picture.
Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.
I agree with CG that your being too tough on the reverse even for a P mint. I feel the toning is much more attractive than the obverse. I would go MS65 on the reverse.
Don
U.S. Nickels Complete Set with Major Varieties, Circulation Strikes
U.S. Dimes Complete Set with Major Varieties, Circulation Strikes
That being said, I'm inclined to agree more with the reverse image that stman provided. I think that is probably closer to what the actual coin looks like.
My opinions and thoughts on the grade...
Obverse:
I happen to be a guy who loves toning on mint state Barbers. Anyone who's seen a beautifully toned Barber coin knows what I'm talking about. They are simply breathtaking. I have a hunch that this coin is breathtaking in person. Those golds and purples mingled with blues along the rim are probably iridescent in nature. The strike looks very, very nice. There appears to be some nice mint frost on the upper part of the hair, wreath, and bonnet. I'm guessing it contrasts nicely with the rim toning. Those darker spots on the chin and cheek that may have led darktone to surmise "AUish" on the obverse... I'm betting those are areas of whispy lilac-gray toning. I base this on the toning evident on the middle of the wreath. It's the same color as the chin and cheek spots. There are clearly some extremely light bag marks in the fields and on the cheek and neck. But nothing like what is commonly seen on MS63-64 examples. The luster appears very vibrant and without better pictures it's impossible to know if there are any breaks to it. Based on what I'm seeing, I would grade the obverse MS65.
Reverse:
Again we see the rim toning... golds, olives, maroons... except for the two denticles beneath the "H" in HALF where there is no toning at all. Very weird! If I had to guess, this coin probably spent a long time in a old-time album or display board with the reverse of the coin up against a cardboard or velvet backing. I'm suspecting that only the obverse was visible to the viewer. I'm thinking that what appears to be a dull, lifeless reverse is actually a moderately-toned reverse (from being in that album). I'm betting the overall toning is a misty lilac-gray similar to the cheek and chin spots on the obverse. You can see a little lavender toning in the image provided by stman and it doesn't differ too much from the overall look of the reverse. I'm betting the surfaces underneath that toning are lustrous and possibly even semi-prooflike (which would also explain why the reverse looks a little "dead" in the scan. There is a noticeable lack of marks of any kind on the reverse. I don't detect a single bag mark or scrape except for three possible extremely light ones: 1) in the field between the "H" in HALF and the olive branch, 2) in the field between the "R" in DOLLAR and the bottom arrow tip, and 3) between the "D" in UNITED and the "S" in STATES. The overall strike, in my opinion, is pretty good. Those wing and outer tail feathers look especially nice and well-defined. The center strike does appear to be a little weaker (that may be due in part to a poor scan from Heritage or from slight "plastic haze" from the slab). The eagle's right claw is weak, however this is common on Philly mint Barber Halves from '96-'00 (they changed the hubs in '01 and I think they tweaked the strike pressures too because the strike improvement on that claw is noticeably better after that). Bearing this in mind, I'm going to grade the Reverse MS64.
Final Conclusion:
Obverse MS65
Reverse MS64
Net Grade: MS64
This is a case where I think PCGS got it right and Heritage is showing their inability to provide adequate scans for their customers. But then again, what else is new!
Reverse 63
Grade 64.
<< <i>This is a case where I think PCGS got it right and Heritage is showing their inability to provide adequate scans for their customers. >>
Cratylus, you hit the nail on the head! it's impossible to get an overall feel for this coin from those pictures- for all we know the reverse is MS65 and the obverse is MS63 and that's how they arrived at the grade of 64 at PCGS? mike
I happen to grade the obverse MS-64 almost 65. I believe PCGS gave the obverse a virtual 65. Here is why.
Despite the other posters comments, the obverse appears to be a late die state struck coin and consequently has very deep frosty luster. It has toned over the years and is extremely close to a gem but not quite. So let us give this coin a 64.75 grade
The reverse? Looks like a 63. But let us assume MS-63 and a low end 63 which is still a choice BU grade. I cannot be sure that this is so as the pics are hard to discern.
obverse MS-64.75 x 60% = 38.85
reverse MS-63.00 x 40% = 25.20
Total grade 64.05
You think that PCGS spent this much time figuring this out? Frankly, this is why I believe PCGS liked the obverse enough to give the grade a full 64. If in fact, the reverse was a 62 then PCGS must have really liked the obverse to give it an overall 64.
Some collectors like myself love the frosty/creamy knid of luster seen on silver coins whereas others prefer the clear/satiny proof like luster. Everyone is different
Rev 63+
Final Grade MS-64
Heritage takes awful pictures when it comes to luster.
Camelot
Obverse: strike MS65-66, luster MS63-64, marks MS64, eye appeal MS 63-64, overall MS64+
Reverse: strike MS65, luster MS62-63, marks MS 65-66, eye appeal MS63-64, overall MS64- or MS63++
the whole coin I like a lot as a 63 but just ok as a 64, hope this helps
Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry
Edited to add a few last thoughts of mine before I tally up & reread the responces Sunday night. It appears their was somewhat of a bidding war for this coin as it went for over 1400 dollars {I think it was 1459] in any event that topped the last online bid [mine] by around 400 dollars, makes me wonder if now is the time to sell my best when most people agreed the reverse on this coin was not a 64.
With around 15 responces so far, I'm sure their will be a winner, if their is I will give them the choice of the pcgs 64 r & b type date I.H.C. or a cashiers check for 55 dollars, winners choice. Good luck & keep up the great responces untill Sunday night.
Les P.S. I hate floor bidders !!!!
<< <i>It appears their was somewhat of a bidding war for this coin as it went for over 1400 dollars {I think it was 1459] in any event that topped the last online bid by around 400 dollars, makes me wonder if now is the time to sell my best when most people agreed the reverse on this coin was not a 64. >>
Don't judge the market based on cruddy pictures- this coin could have been awesome in person! Maybe somebody at the auction can look at it in person and give a live up to date opinion on it?
Reverse 63
Well, I don't really have much experience with this, but you said I have to give a reason (in my case I guess.)
To me the obverse appears to have a lot more luster, and on the reverse the strike looks a little weak towards to the center.
Cher-Wood Forest Aviary
POTD - May 26, 2005
<< <i> It appears their was somewhat of a bidding war for this coin as it went for over 1400 dollars {I think it was 1459] in any event that topped the last online bid [mine] by around 400 dollars, makes me wonder if now is the time to sell my best when most people agreed the reverse on this coin was not a 64. >>
Well BL you seem to still be going by the image. Like a few have said (including me) you can't go by these crappy images. The floor bidding seems to be a clear indication the coin was all there and probably then some. We here don't know because we can't see it. Doesn't matter you say that most HERE agree the reverse is not 64.
On the other hand perhaps the coin really wasn't all there and someone was a fool? We won't know until we could actually see it which I doubt will happen since we didn't buy it.
Just a question and perhaps a tip.... did you have anybody you know and trust take a look in person at this coin? If not maybe you should in the future. But if it's a great coin and you want it you got's to pay.
This will be my only ttt on this thread.
Not enough people yet to have a winner, people who guessed grades without explination of your guesses can edit your thoughts unitll 9:59 pm Sunday night and I encourage you to do so because the rules are clear you must state your reasons for your grade guesses and their must be 20 responces with guesses as to the grade of both sides for a prize to be awarded.
I am chomping at the bit to answer some of the very good guesses not just to the grade of both sides but the reasoning for them, but I won't do so untill tommorrow after 10 pm central because I don't want to be cheerleading for anybody. If you have already guessed and given your reasons then please encourage more people to do so or to [finish their answers if all they did is give grades with no reasons] because their answers wont count towards the 20 seperate answers needed before Sunday night at 10 central time.
Les
About David's comment about coins with the obv and rev being quite different I would have to disagree. I'm not a dealer and I've seen many coins in almost every series that would grade 2 to 3 points apart.
Chris
My Collection of Old Holders
Never a slave to one plastic brand will I ever be.
I give the obverse a High 64/low 65 from the strike quality, but the luster is not there (in the pic) Not too many marks, clean cheek and relatively clean fields.....but not a gem.
The reverse is not the best strike, nor the worst strike.....but a 63 in my book.
add the halfway decent tone and the low 65 pulls the 63 to a 64 overall.
Reverse-MS62
I think it got the MS64 grade based on eye appeal. If the strike had been stronger, it would have gone 65 easily. IMHO.
Edited to add: Hopefully it has more luster than the picture shows. Nice coin though.
for the last time
Reverse: I would give the reverse a grade of MS-64. The toning on the reverse is okay but it does not really do much for me. Once again there are hardly any hits.
Overall Grade: It received the MS-64 grade because the eye appeal on the obverse doee not make up for the way that that reverse looks. Basically, in this case the obverse color did not make up for the toning that is on the reverse. Therefore the grade of the reverse was given to the coin.
Edited to remove something that was accidentally left in while I was typing.
Capped Bust Half Series
Capped Bust Half Dime Series
The reverse, although not as lusterous as the obverse, is also well struck. Quite a few others feel that it only rates a MS 63. I disagree. Its a solid 64. The lackluster reverse seems devoid of any "snap", but as many others have pointed out, Heritage's images are not as good as they should me in many cases. An in person examination is definetly called for; tilting and rotating the coin would surely show that this coin has alot of eye appeal.
OBV: 64+
REV: 64
__________
Avg: 64
I agree more with the grading on PCGS coins than I do on the other services, however, every so often something slips thru incorrectly. I feel the graders got this coin "right on the nose".
Hope you were the sucessful bidder; the coin's a "beaut".
~~~~~~~~~~~~
Coin collecting is not a hobby, it's an obsession !
New Barber Purchases
Capped Bust Half Series
Capped Bust Half Dime Series
Rookie Joe here
After viewing these coins these are my conclusions:
OBVERSE: The toning on this coin I like a lot--it gives it great eye appeal.
The problem with the obverse I see it looks a little marked up.
I will give it a grade of MS-64
REVERSE: The reverse looks mark-free very clean.
The problem on the reverse is it looks worn.
I will give it a grade of ms-62
Overall grade because of obverse toning and eye-appeal NICE MS-64
Joe,
Hope you win it--nice coin.
you have 16 minutes to get 2 more qualifying answers.
Les
Rev: MS65
A few very small hits on the obverse, and other then that this is what I think it is! Other than that it's a very nice coin, so nice it might be a...
Obv: MS65
Rev: MS65
Guess it would depend on who submitted it, when it was submitted and if the grader got laid the night before!
AU58 for the reverse because the eagle looks like it had some circulation rubbing. The shield is almost flat and the eagle's feathers look a little shiny.
AU58 for the reverse because the eagle looks like it had some circulation rubbing. The shield is almost flat and the eagle's feathers look a little shiny.
Overall, the coin should "in my opinion" grade AU58 because the coin's reverse looks to have been circulated, "in one sense or another" and since the reverse is half of a whole coin, the whole coin must be AU58. Can't cut half a coin off and circulate it then solder it back together.
Doesn't even look like the same coin in both pictures.
Les
I think it can happen more time than david says its just not point out do to the lesser value coins involed.
my 2C
Thanks, Barberlover {Les Levin}
My thoughts to follow
Capped Bust Half Series
Capped Bust Half Dime Series
This was meant purely for the love of the hobby that I love and the series that is my favorite and inparticular a coin that perked my interest, not because I thought it was a monster but because I was as Mr. Spock would say "fasinated" by the contrast in sides and unlike what St man said about going soley by the pictures, I was going by my gut feeling about the coin, when it comes to Barber coins I trust my instincts and my instints said I love that obverse and will take the reverse just to get it. Since the coin bid up to 1459 with the juice their were at least 2 other bidders bidding it up from 1066 which is were it was including the buyers fee when I was the leading bidder when internet bidding closed.
All excellent answers but I thought the winner presented the best thought out answers for his feelings on both the obverse & reverse descriptions.
I have more I'd like to say but for right now I think I'll pm the winner if he has not already pm'd me.
Thanks again everyone for entering my first forum giveaway and Thanks to Dave 98 B for posting the pic's of the coin.
Les