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Will gem and choice 1968 cents be rare?
cladking
Posts: 28,356 ✭✭✭✭✭
I was surprised how little reaction there was to this thread.
The question becomes will there be enough high grade 1968 cents for collectors
who want an entire set of high grade coins. It appears many of the recognized
key date coins are available in high grade if one has the cash, but what about the
dates that people generally ignored? What if the problems with the '68 continue?
There are a substantial number of rolls of these, but last I looked back in the early
'90's, these were fairing little better than the mint set coins.
There are some dates of the memorial cents which were made in very small numbers
in high grade. What if these suffer the same fate as the older '68 (which was common
in high grade at one time)?
"19" added in title
The question becomes will there be enough high grade 1968 cents for collectors
who want an entire set of high grade coins. It appears many of the recognized
key date coins are available in high grade if one has the cash, but what about the
dates that people generally ignored? What if the problems with the '68 continue?
There are a substantial number of rolls of these, but last I looked back in the early
'90's, these were fairing little better than the mint set coins.
There are some dates of the memorial cents which were made in very small numbers
in high grade. What if these suffer the same fate as the older '68 (which was common
in high grade at one time)?
"19" added in title
Tempus fugit.
0
Comments
There is always that little old lady somewhere who worked in a bank and 50 years and dutifully and saved rolls of everything new since Hector was a pup AND had a good eye back when grading was 'Poor/Fair/Almost Unc./Unc.'
I'm waiting to buy her lunch by the way.
having some spotting.
All the coins in the '68 mint set appeared as superb gems when these sets were
new but time and cherry picking have taken a toll on all the coins in them. The
copper/ nickel clad coins aren't too bad with corrosion but there is a lot of hazing
and spotting and many of these were made poorly to start with. Die pressure was
too low to obliterate all the planchet defects on many specimens, especially of the
Philly quarter and dime. There are some superb gems of these with booming lus-
ter, but they do get cherry picked and can be difficult to find. Even nice choice spec-
imens are definitely worth seeking.
For the main part the '69 set is much better preserved but not so well made. All of
the '69 issues are much tougher to find in rolls.
There are other date cents which are rapidly deteriorating. The '84 issues, especially,
come to mind.
<< <i>Always tough to come to these conclusions when you are talking about a mintage in the billions or gazillions.
There is always that little old lady somewhere who worked in a bank and 50 years and dutifully and saved rolls of everything new since Hector was a pup AND had a good eye back when grading was 'Poor/Fair/Almost Unc./Unc.'
I'm waiting to buy her lunch by the way. >>
Yes. Quite true. There were a lot of these made and there were millions saved.
...but it seems we got to this point by people waiting. They've been waiting 36
years and now it would seem that the few mint sets left have no gems left. It
seems as though we may see collections in the future with nice gem keys and
perhaps only a choice '68. What about some of the other dates? While the little
old lady just might come up with a roll with some gem '68's the odds against her
having a roll of all the dates are staggering. We're going to need a lot of little
old ladies.
...and while this takes care of the cents, it does nothing for the clad issues, since
neither the little old lady nor Hector saved rolls of these. Rolls just aren't available.
They may list for only a few dollars each but that's due to a startling lack of interest,
not a large supply. The few rolls on the market are generally of only a few specific
dates and the quality is usually poor anyway. Most of the older rolls one sees ad-
vertised are actually mint set rolls.
To a large degree future collectors are going to be dependent on mint set coins for
nice specimens of all denominations. Certainly exceptions are emerging but the tot-
al loss of all of any specific mint set coin will have repercussions even before you
have a chance to buy lunch for the little old lady.
The 1969 cent master dies was the first year they attempted to re-work the master die to strengthen the detail and also lower the relief a bit.
Those 1968 cents had a HUGE relief almost to the point of where I can call them high relief coins!!!! Just compare the 1968 cent even with the cents of today and you will wish that the US Miont went back to the 1968 cent design despite the poor strike.
Those 1968 cent in MS-67 are sufficiently rare, in my opinion regardless of what the pop report says. In mjy view, will be one of the semi-keys in the years to come.
The same thing happened with the 1945-P merc dime in FB. One of the most common of all dimes. Because it was SO COMMON made the coin rare in high mint state well struck.
Will gem and choice 1968 cents be rare?
no. not ever.
Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry
<< <i>I think most collectors will settle for the best one they can afford and find among the thousands and thousands available, and move on.
>>
This is what collectors have always done. It would be ironic to see a superb
gem set of Lincolns with all the key dates in nice full red and an ugly '68 or some
other date because they don't even exist.
Today they probably exist in rolls but what about a few years from now or twenty
years from now? These definitely are not rare or scarce today since there are still
a few in the mint sets. But if these coins continue to self destruct then who knows
what will be available in a few years.
well, I guess when you're collecting self-destructing coins, you gotta be prepared for anything
I agree they are neat, high relief dates, but sorry if I don't share your concern about supply.
Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry
Registry 1909-1958 Proof Lincolns
<< <i>The 1968 Philly cents suffered from tired old master dies. Crummy strikes. >>
Actually the strikes weren't that bad, but the master dies WERE completely shot.
<< <i>The 1969 cent master dies was the first year they attempted to re-work the master die to strengthen the detail and also lower the relief a bit. >>
They didn't re-work the master die, they created an entirely new master hub with much better detail and the relief was a little lower but not that much.
<< <i>Those 1968 cents had a HUGE relief almost to the point of where I can call them high relief coins!!!! Just compare the 1968 cent even with the cents of today and you will wish that the US Mint went back to the 1968 cent design despite the poor strike. >>
What good is high relief with no detail? And if they went back to that amount of relief for the cent today the strikes would make the typical 1968 look like a gem.
Actually the strikes weren't that bad, but the master dies WERE completely shot.
My retort: If the master die were indeed completely shot as we agree on, then how could the strikes ever be anything but crummy?
<< The 1969 cent master dies was the first year they attempted to re-work the master die to strengthen the detail and also lower the relief a bit. >>
They didn't re-work the master die, they created an entirely new master hub with much better detail and the relief was a little lower but not that much.
My retort: Yes, agreed, master hub was reworked. Ok you call it creating an entirely new master hub. I call it reworked. Your wording has more clarity indeed.
<< Those 1968 cents had a HUGE relief almost to the point of where I can call them high relief coins!!!! Just compare the 1968 cent even with the cents of today and you will wish that the US Mint went back to the 1968 cent design despite the poor strike. >>
What good is high relief with no detail? And if they went back to that amount of relief for the cent today the strikes would make the typical 1968 look like a gem.
My retort: Such 1968 coin with no detail still is an admirable coin since it reminds us of the old Greek high relief coins!!! Indeed, the cents of today (even with better detail) makes our 1968 cents look like monstrous gem coins (without detail).
Love this bantering style! Conder101 is the best!
<< <i>If the master die were indeed completely shot as we agree on, then how could the strikes ever be anything but crummy? >>
The strike quality has nothing to do with the quality of the master die. The coins can be fully struck up with complete filling of the dies, excellent striking quality, but if there is no detail in the die then the coins will still look bad. Don't confuse lack of detail on a 1968 cent with being a crummy strike.
<< <i>Yes, agreed, master hub was reworked. Ok you call it creating an entirely new master hub. I call it reworked. Your wording has more clarity indeed. >>
Well all the lettering is slightly smaller, sharper and MOVED inward towards the center of the coin. What few details that are visible in the hair and beard on the 68's are gone and the hair and beard now has a multitude of fine details that haven't been seen on the cent since the 40's, but it is NOT the same "hairstyle" as on the 1940's cents, and the entire bust is now SMALLER. I suppose you could use engraving tools and cut down the size of the bust on the 1968 master hub and engrave an entire new bust out of it. Not sure how you'll move the lettering though. Seems to me it would just be easier to start over and create a new model from scratch and then a completely new master hub.
<< <i>Such 1968 coin with no detail still is an admirable coin since it reminds us of the old Greek high relief coins!!! Indeed, the cents of today (even with better detail) makes our 1968 cents look like monstrous gem coins (without detail). >>
I don't think there is anyway to make a 1968 cent into a monstrous gem. As for it reminding me of one of the old Greek high relief coins, only if you can find one that is worn down to a "slug". It will still have higher relief and about as much detail.
<< <i>Love this bantering style! Conder101 is the best! >>
Glad you like it, I'm having fun.
Now, now, when we speak of a coin being fully struck we are comparing such coin and date to other dates in the same coin series. The same is true of a poorly struck coin we are also comparing same to other dates. It would be improper to say that a coin with no details is fully struck by making allowances for poorly maintained dies.
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<Well all the lettering is slightly smaller, sharper and MOVED inward towards the center of the coin. What few details that are visible in the hair and beard on the 68's are gone and the hair and beard now has a multitude of fine details that haven't been seen on the cent since the 40's, but it is NOT the same "hairstyle" as on the 1940's cents, and the entire bust is now SMALLER. I suppose you could use engraving tools and cut down the size of the bust on the 1968 master hub and engrave an entire new bust out of it. Not sure how you'll move the lettering though. Seems to me it would just be easier to start over and create a new model from scratch and then a completely new master hub.>>>>>>>>>>
My understanding was that the master hub was completely redone in 1969 not in 1968.
<<<<<<<<<<<<< I don't think there is anyway to make a 1968 cent into a monstrous gem. As for it reminding me of one of the old Greek high relief coins, only if you can find one that is worn down to a "slug". It will still have higher relief and about as much detail. >>>>>>>>>>
Now, now I did not say there was any way to make a 1968 cent into a monstroous gem. But compared to the flat pancake 2004 cents with almost all blank planchet fields and minature and flat bust with no 3 dimensional "feel" or even "look" to it it sure does make the 1968 cent look like a monstrous work of art.
You think Mr. Victor D. Brenner would turn in his "sculptor's license" faster by seeing the 1968 or 2004 cent first?