I'll admit that I was reacting negatively to this thread and that the reference to MW is a thought in my head not a hard cold fact. I should have ommitted that reference. My axe to grind with SGC is that they grade sheet cut cards and do not identify the card as such. I have been burned on several OPC's from them and BGS/BVG as well, to a tune of close to $1000, so I guess mine view of them is a little biased.
PSA may not be perfect, noone is, but even you have to admit that holding and grading a raw card is an entirely different animal than grading a graded and holdered card. You just can't see everything that you can when it raw. Its unfortunate that grading incidents occur, but they will, and I imagine that a lot of collectors have stories like GoSoxBoSox encountered. I have personnally have had three of them, with PSA and other company graded cards.
I don't like being negative and I am sorry if my heat of the moment reaction, ruffled any feathers.
Sorry,
Scott Jeanblanc jeanblanc@iconnect.net Ebay UserId : sjeanblanc --------------------------------------------------- Collecting Nolan Ryan cards (68-94)
Sorry to hear about your experience with sheet cut OPC. Personally, I don't have as huge a problem with those type of cards as others, but that argument is for another day, and I digress.
I assume that for you to claim you lost $1000, SGC and BVG cards were crossed over and rejected by PSA. I cannot make any comment on Beckett graded cards, as I have never so much as bid on one. I hear they openly grade sheetcuts, or are horrible at spotting them. I form no opinion, but if that is a widely held view, weren't you at risk in knowingly buying them in the first place?
SGC is another story. I was not aware that they would grade sheetcuts--if this is true, please elaborate. If they just missed them in your case, I would suggest you bring it to their attention, especially if their policy is not to grade them. Their customer service is usually very responsive to complaints.
Do you personally believe the cards are sheetcut? Or is it because PSA says so? I'm no expert on OPC, but I have about 600 or so 73-74 Topps Hockey that are all nm/mt except for factory flaws (basically centering and print dots). More than 1/2 of these are so rough cut you would swear they were OPC, and further swear they could not have been made by the same company that made the others. I also have many 72-73 OPC Hockey that are badlky rough cut, others not at all. My point is some issues are so notoriously blackballed with the rough cut label that true, non-rough cuts are at least occassionally dismissed as being cut from a sheet. I know others have posted on this very topic. Perhaps you could provide more specifics.
First of all thanks for putting this post out in the open for everyone to discuss. After reading this post Here are few thoughts:
1.) SGC never graded the cards in question as trimmed that means they either
A.) Were absolutely correct in grading the cards
or
B.) Completely missed the boat.
I do note that like PSA they had some grade variation on the Critz.
I would be curious to know if the Critz originally was a more recent SGC grade or in one of their older holders.
2.) How much does another companies grade influence a grader? It is human nature to go with the flow rather than fight the current.
3.)The fact that you submitted the card with a limited time frame may have allowed less careful scrutinization. But then again you were paying a stiff premium for the service so in my mind this would not be a valid response. Regardless of the service level you spent your money hoping for and were promised an accurate grade. No one said geez we may not really look at your card if submitted for a one day or two day service.
3.) How are the card graders compensated? Salary,Hourly, or piecemeal? I think PSA should disclose this much like a stock broker should disclose if they are getting a bonus for selling you a particular mutual fund....
4.) What is the experience level of the current grading staff? How much training do they receive ? How are the graders policed and rated?
5.) Finally what is the step by step grading process and what safeguards does PSA empoy to insure its final grades are as accurate and consistent as possible?
Obviously the same questions would apply to GAi,SGC and whatever grading company one uses...
Life isn't about waiting for the storm to pass... it's about learning to dance in the rain.
At the time I bought the BGS/BVG OPC's I was not aware that they had been sheet cut. It wasn't until PSA graded them "Evid Trim" that I knew something was wrong. A few weeks after that threads started showing up here on the CU forums about sheet cut OPC's. It was then that I really looked the cards over. They were all arched like the monument in St. Louis, and the edges looked like they had been cut with a laser, none of these characteristics are common in any of the PSA graded OPC's that I have. I believe the arch effect is from the uncut sheet.
So at that point I wouldn't buy anymore BGS/BVG graded OPC stuff. So since there is a distinct lack of OPC PSA graded stuff on Ebay, I bought a 1974 OPC Ryan SGC 88 and a 1974 OPC Ryan K Ldrs SGC 92, when I got them you could see in the holder the arch effect. I sent them to PSA in the holders for crossover and they came back "Evid Trim". I broke them out and they looked exactly like the BGS/BVG OPC's, so I sent them in raw and they came back "Evid Trim". I called PSA Customer Service before the cards left to ask why and the response I got back, (don't remember the name it was last year sometime) was that they were cut from an uncut sheet and PSA doesn't graded uncut sheets.
At that point, I can't very well complain to SGC, because the cards are no longer holdered. SGC also graded the Tiger Woods Masters cards from uncut sheets, but at least there they dated them 1998 instead of 1997.
I only buy the OPC baseball, so I can't speak to OPC Hockey, but I won't buy anything OPC that is not PSA graded.
Scott Jeanblanc jeanblanc@iconnect.net Ebay UserId : sjeanblanc ---------------------------------------------- Collecting Nolan Ryan cards (68-94)
<< <i>I'm sorry you see this post as bashing grading companies >>
The problem with the written word...is that it is the written word...it's open to interpretation...we hear no voice inflexion...see no body language...hear nothing...potentially what is very innocent becomes misunderstood...I did not see the bashing is Con40's remarks...remember folks...unless your some kind of criminal I don't think the members playing here are out to get anyone...or insult anyone...just to be insulting...of course there are always exceptions...but nonetheless...if we all play nice...we can each help each other..."better" this hobby...and I think that was the motive for this thread in the first place...
Henri Collector Topps 58,59,60,61,62,63,64 Sets Fleer 60, 61-62 Sets
Maybe if the slabs were harder to crack this would not be an issue.
I have about 200 PSA graded cards and would not be nervous about damaging any of the cards if I decided to crack and resubmit. On the other hand, I have one BGS card and I would be very weary of trying to open (that slab is like a brick).
A stronger holder that is harder to get into would keep collectors from resubimitting till they get the grade they want. But this would mean less $$$$$ for PSA
collecting '67 & '75 red sox + baseball HOF autographs
scott, this sort of activity has been going on for alot longer than psa grading cards! i would be willing to bet that psa has graded their fair share of sheet cut cards!yeah the opc's are pretty easy to spot but the topps are not! psa didn't even know that the 84 topps nestles were sheet cut untill a thread just like this about a year ago.
Check my submission thread. On it you will see a 1975 Topps #320 Pete Rose "Evid Trim". Bingo it came from a 75 Topps uncut sheet and was graded by BGS as a 8.5 that I had bought 1.5 years ago. Wasn't until I took it out of the holder and saw the arch effect that I was suspisous. I just graded it to confirm it.
Scott Jeanblanc jeanblanc@iconnect.net Ebay UserId : sjeanblanc -------------------------------------------- Collecting Nolan Ryan cards (68-94)
I'll stick with lower grade cards. I buy the card and don't really like the 7/8/9 game.
I think PSA is the best company out there, but they need to do a whole lot more to prove to me that they are on top of these types of issues. Why is it that we on this board only speculate about the grading process? How many graders? What are the qualifications? Why is the grading so inconsitent? Etc etc.
Some think that 2 graders look at each card. Some think that the one grader that looks at the cards is so overworked that he gives us "grader or death" type grades.
Lastly, I don't know Joe or anyone else from PSA. But it seems to me they do a decent job. But the reality is that they can ignore this type of issue. Hell, look at the PSA front page, they have more business than they can handle. It doesn't seem to be slowing up....
Perkdog your card could not be graded because it was miscut and would not fit in the holder properly. your card was not deemed altered I think they could have put it into a pregrade thingy maybe.
I have exactly 500 psa cards in my collection 496 of them I agree with the grade given, of the 4 that i disagree with two I feel are over graded and 2 under graded, I submitted 11 cards last weekend at the fort wash show 10 were given the exact grade i anticipated and 1 fell 3 grades short.............. the grader must have seen something i didnt. in my case they have a 98.75 grade average (pun intended) how much better can any profession be?
Comments
I'll admit that I was reacting negatively to this thread and that the reference to MW is a thought in my head not a hard cold fact. I should have ommitted that reference. My axe to grind with SGC is that they grade sheet cut cards and do not identify the card as such. I have been burned on several OPC's from them and BGS/BVG as well, to a tune of close to $1000, so I guess mine view of them is a little biased.
PSA may not be perfect, noone is, but even you have to admit that holding and grading a raw card is an entirely different animal than grading a graded and holdered card. You just can't see everything that you can when it raw. Its unfortunate that grading incidents occur, but they will, and I imagine that a lot of collectors have stories like GoSoxBoSox encountered. I have personnally have had three of them, with PSA and other company graded cards.
I don't like being negative and I am sorry if my heat of the moment reaction, ruffled any feathers.
Sorry,
Scott Jeanblanc
jeanblanc@iconnect.net
Ebay UserId : sjeanblanc
---------------------------------------------------
Collecting Nolan Ryan cards (68-94)
Sorry to hear about your experience with sheet cut OPC. Personally, I don't have as huge a problem with those type of cards as others, but that argument is for another day, and I digress.
I assume that for you to claim you lost $1000, SGC and BVG cards were crossed over and rejected by PSA. I cannot make any comment on Beckett graded cards, as I have never so much as bid on one. I hear they openly grade sheetcuts, or are horrible at spotting them. I form no opinion, but if that is a widely held view, weren't you at risk in knowingly buying them in the first place?
SGC is another story. I was not aware that they would grade sheetcuts--if this is true, please elaborate. If they just missed them in your case, I would suggest you bring it to their attention, especially if their policy is not to grade them. Their customer service is usually very responsive to complaints.
Do you personally believe the cards are sheetcut? Or is it because PSA says so? I'm no expert on OPC, but I have about 600 or so 73-74 Topps Hockey that are all nm/mt except for factory flaws (basically centering and print dots). More than 1/2 of these are so rough cut you would swear they were OPC, and further swear they could not have been made by the same company that made the others. I also have many 72-73 OPC Hockey that are badlky rough cut, others not at all. My point is some issues are so notoriously blackballed with the rough cut label that true, non-rough cuts are at least occassionally dismissed as being cut from a sheet. I know others have posted on this very topic. Perhaps you could provide more specifics.
ebay id: nolemmings
First of all thanks for putting this post out in the open for everyone to discuss. After reading this post Here are few thoughts:
1.) SGC never graded the cards in question as trimmed that means they either
A.) Were absolutely correct in grading the cards
or
B.) Completely missed the boat.
I do note that like PSA they had some grade variation on the Critz.
I would be curious to know if the Critz originally was a more recent SGC grade or in one of their older holders.
2.) How much does another companies grade influence a grader? It is human nature to go with the flow rather than fight the current.
3.)The fact that you submitted the card with a limited time frame may have allowed less careful scrutinization. But then again you were paying a stiff premium for the service so in my mind this would not be a valid response. Regardless of the service level you spent your money hoping for and were promised an accurate grade. No one said geez we may not really look at your card if submitted for a one day or two day service.
3.) How are the card graders compensated? Salary,Hourly, or piecemeal? I think PSA should disclose this much like a stock broker should disclose if they are getting a bonus for selling you a particular mutual fund....
4.) What is the experience level of the current grading staff? How much training do they receive ? How are the graders policed and rated?
5.) Finally what is the step by step grading process and what safeguards does PSA empoy to insure its final grades are as accurate and consistent as possible?
Obviously the same questions would apply to GAi,SGC and whatever grading company one uses...
At the time I bought the BGS/BVG OPC's I was not aware that they had been sheet cut. It wasn't until PSA graded them "Evid Trim" that I knew something was wrong. A few weeks after that threads started showing up here on the CU forums about sheet cut OPC's. It was then that I really looked the cards over. They were all arched like the monument in St. Louis, and the edges looked like they had been cut with a laser, none of these characteristics are common in any of the PSA graded OPC's that I have. I believe the arch effect is from the uncut sheet.
So at that point I wouldn't buy anymore BGS/BVG graded OPC stuff. So since there is a distinct lack of OPC PSA graded stuff on Ebay, I bought a 1974 OPC Ryan SGC 88 and a 1974 OPC Ryan K Ldrs SGC 92, when I got them you could see in the holder the arch effect. I sent them to PSA in the holders for crossover and they came back "Evid Trim". I broke them out and they looked exactly like the BGS/BVG OPC's, so I sent them in raw and they came back "Evid Trim". I called PSA Customer Service before the cards left to ask why and the response I got back, (don't remember the name it was last year sometime) was that they were cut from an uncut sheet and PSA doesn't graded uncut sheets.
At that point, I can't very well complain to SGC, because the cards are no longer holdered. SGC also graded the Tiger Woods Masters cards from uncut sheets, but at least there they dated them 1998 instead of 1997.
I only buy the OPC baseball, so I can't speak to OPC Hockey, but I won't buy anything OPC that is not PSA graded.
Scott Jeanblanc
jeanblanc@iconnect.net
Ebay UserId : sjeanblanc
----------------------------------------------
Collecting Nolan Ryan cards (68-94)
<< <i>I'm sorry you see this post as bashing grading companies >>
The problem with the written word...is that it is the written word...it's open to interpretation...we hear no voice inflexion...see no body language...hear nothing...potentially what is very innocent becomes misunderstood...I did not see the bashing is Con40's remarks...remember folks...unless your some kind of criminal I don't think the members playing here are out to get anyone...or insult anyone...just to be insulting...of course there are always exceptions...but nonetheless...if we all play nice...we can each help each other..."better" this hobby...and I think that was the motive for this thread in the first place...
Collector
Topps 58,59,60,61,62,63,64 Sets
Fleer 60, 61-62 Sets
I have about 200 PSA graded cards and would not be nervous about damaging any of the cards if I decided to crack and resubmit. On the other hand, I have one BGS card and I would be very weary of trying to open (that slab is like a brick).
A stronger holder that is harder to get into would keep collectors from resubimitting till they get the grade they want. But this would mean less $$$$$ for PSA
this sort of activity has been going on for alot longer than psa grading cards! i would be willing to bet that psa has graded their fair share of sheet cut cards!yeah the opc's are pretty easy to spot but the topps are not! psa didn't even know that the 84 topps nestles were sheet cut untill a thread just like this about a year ago.
ON ITS WAY TO NEWPORT BEACH, CA 92658
Check my submission thread. On it you will see a 1975 Topps #320 Pete Rose "Evid Trim". Bingo it came from a 75 Topps uncut sheet and was graded by BGS as a 8.5 that I had bought 1.5 years ago. Wasn't until I took it out of the holder and saw the arch effect that I was suspisous. I just graded it to confirm it.
Scott Jeanblanc
jeanblanc@iconnect.net
Ebay UserId : sjeanblanc
--------------------------------------------
Collecting Nolan Ryan cards (68-94)
I'll stick with lower grade cards. I buy the card and don't really like the 7/8/9 game.
I think PSA is the best company out there, but they need to do a whole lot more to prove to me that they are on top of these types of issues. Why is it that we on this board only speculate about the grading process? How many graders? What are the qualifications? Why is the grading so inconsitent? Etc etc.
Some think that 2 graders look at each card. Some think that the one grader that looks at the cards is so overworked that he gives us "grader or death" type grades.
Lastly, I don't know Joe or anyone else from PSA. But it seems to me they do a decent job. But the reality is that they can ignore this type of issue. Hell, look at the PSA front page, they have more business than they can handle. It doesn't seem to be slowing up....
Once again, thanks for your post.