What Board Members say about ICG slabs

Justhavingfun

The April 9th ish of The Coin Dealer Newsletter ranked the ICG slabs higher than PCGS. This was totally contrary to my own experience and I posted a thread asking for comments. Here's a summary of what the Board Members say about the ICG slabs. An interesting and (to me) devastating indictment of the ICG slabs and indirectly of CDN data.

Cocoinnut: "ICG graded pieces almost always sell for hte price of a coin graded 1 to 3 points lower by PCGS."

Russ: "CDN uses a propriety algorithim from an alternative universe." [lol. JHF]

Carl Wohlforth: "I just sold some proof Lincolns in ICG holders that were nowhere near NGC or PCGS prices"

Sonofagunk: "All they are saying is that if the coin is ICG graded, you KNOW it is crap, so you pay crap prices"

jcping: "if you ever saw any ICG early graded coins, you would know why they were very good when ICG started ... Then, ICG loosed the grading standards, IMO; don't know the reason"

Oreville: "I suspect this CDN comparative is from the first year ICG existed. At that time ICG was very good, in fact, very very good, very competitve with PCGS."

Bushmaster8: "I have had about 1 in 10 ICG coins cross at same grade to PCGS"

Flyingcougar: "I don't think they're saying that ICG slabs are better, look at a Blue Sheet which now lists ICG & ANACS. The ICG Merc 16-D in a 65FB is $9500.00, PCGS is $32,000.00 and NGC is $22,425.00 for site-unseen." [so in this case, the ICG slab is worth less than a third the value of the PCGS slab. JHF]

Manofcoins: "1 in 20 [ICG coins cross] for me. I have bought several with the idea of cracking and accepting 1 grade lower"

RegistryCoin: 'It Was confusing. Icg did start off as..........Now???????"

MrPlatinum: "One word QVC ICG coins are bringing a huge premium on all those TV coin shows, politics? you bet"

The consensus seems to me to be clear: The ICG slabs don't hold a candle to the PCGS slabs.

Yet, Coin Dealer Newsletter is ranking ICG slabs above PCGS. Why? How do they get this nutty result? Does anyone know how they do their rankings?

Best wishes,


Jush Having Fun

Stooge

JHF, I bought 2 silver Roosies in ICG holders from Teletrade about 2 years ago. They were 1959 and 1959-D MS67 and they were blast white. I sent them into PCGS and both came back MS66. How can you want this crap (ICG)? I will buy any other slab, ONLY if the coin looks good. Then I will cross it over or crack it out to get it into a PCGS holder. There is only 1 choice for me, but that is just my opinion.

Later, Paul.

RegistryCoin

It's what is becoming so typical and prevelent in business, politics, etc., Reverse Marketing.
Tell 'em the opposite of the truth, and some will believe it... ie., "Weyerhaueser, the tree growing company".

onlyroosies

About 2 years ago I had over 40 ICG MS68 Roosies. Now this was back when ICG was doing an OK
job I guess. I finally gave up on ICG and today 2 of those Roosies reside in PCGS MS68 holders. About
8 others ended up in PCGS MS67 holders, 2 ended up in body bags and all the rest graded out somewhere
between a low of MS64 to a high of MS66. But!!! I had no more then $200 into any one coin and most were
under $100. All in all I made out OK. The few top Roosies I ended up with in PCGS holders covered the cost
of all the rest.

I do remember one ending up in an NGC MS68* holder too. All the ICG winners have all been cherry picked
and are now in either PCGS or NGC holders. Everything I'm seeing today in an ICG holder is overgraded by
at least 2 grades or would be body bagged.

Onlyroosies

Bellportman

Cracked out my 1955-D ICG MS66 White Washer, came back as a PCGS MS64...

Needless to say I didn't agree with the results...

wayneherndon

I would tend to agree with the crowd. However, I doubt you get a very representative sample on the PCGS message boards.

WH

djm

From the post in this thread ICG is about as good as NGC 1 grade lower than PCGS.

I have never been able to cross an NGC coin to PCGS. I have crossed some ICG Morgans to PCGS at the same grade.

I would buy an ICG coin before an ANACS or NGC coin.

If you want PCGS slabs then buy PCGS slabs.

RegistryCoin

Wayne. There is no harsher crowd, with regards to pcgs, than the forum members here. As you, we've been through it all...
Specifically, I find that when I look closely at icg vs ngc, I used to find them equal, in second place together, pcgs is still the standard, ngc-add a grade, icg-add two grades, just to be safe (as a generality).

oreville

Sounds like a cookbook recipe discussion.

mozeppa

just to play devils advocate...

i have two matte proof lincolns that were cracked out of icg holders....both were 64 red/browns

i submitted both to pcgs....both came back 64 red/browns.

i guess sometimes they hit their mark.

Justhavingfun

Well thank you, Mozeppa: I want to get contrary experiences as well as supporting ones. Just to get a feel for what's out there. You obviously have a minority view but that doesn't make you wrong (or right). Thanks for the input.

Enjoy!

Just Having Fun

centmaster

PCGS is still the toughest on high end material. It seems to me that whenever there is a comparison between, or some kind of study of the major grading services, like Coin World published last year, there aren't enough upper mint state or proof coins used or talked about. Almost all companies, and even most of us collectors can agree on a VF coin being VF, for instance. Some may call it VF20 or 25 or 30, but there would be no argument and not too much of a price difference. The problem I see with the discussion, which is also the flaw in Coin World's attempt (although valiant) is that nobody cracked out a bunch of coins that ICG graded as MS67 or 68 and PR69 or 70 and sent them to PCGS. PCGS might cross coins to a PR64RB grade all day long (as long as they weren't cleaned) but try to cross ANYTHING at PR70 or MS68 to PCGS! It just won't happen. PCGS has said that a fair percentage of coins in other holders cross into theirs, and that may be true, but that includes many other coins in lesser grades. I wish I could see their figures for Lincoln cents from 1935-58 crossing over to 67RD. I would estimate it at about 2%, though.

Boom

Well guys (and gals) I guess I've been fortunate but then I did the actual hand picking.

18 out of 20 NGC certified Quarters (all the 66s) crossed successfully. The 2 that DNC came as

no surprise as I figured they wouldn't. They were an NGC 65 1942-S and an NGC 67 1946-S.

Seems like 66 is pretty much the cutoff-I suspect most NGC 67s will not make it! BTW, all of

these were submitted in the slabs. Here's a shocker though. I had an NTC 64 1932-S come bac PCGS

63....GO FIGURE! That was a nice $1000 profit- for the record, it was sent in raw!

I just bought two ICG 67 Quarters that COULD go 67 however I am not really betting the house

on it. I think 66 is a much safer bet. They are two tougher dates that I actually stole for less

than the price of a 65-so I'll be content. I've seen enough 66s to feel confident enough to say

they'll go 66 BUT they are of such quality that 67 is a possibility.

Now, for the ultimate disappointment. I cracked out (very carefully) a PCGS 63 1932-S and did

nothing to the coin at all and it came back PCGS 58! WOW!

Justhavingfun

Dear Centmaster:

My experience is similar to yours: That PCGS is hardest on the top-of-the-line coins. And that's where I've had all my bad experiences with ICG coins: MS 66, 67, 68, and Proof 68, 69, 70, deep cameos. But the Coin Dealer's Newsletter's claim that ICG coins sell sight unseen for more than PCGS defies my experience and I think the experience of most of the people replying to the thread.


Hi Boom:

I'm really not surprised that the NGC coins crossed. For all the hoopdela about the NGC/PCGS rivalry, I've found that nice NGC coins will cross to PCGS, sometimes even upgrade. What is surprising is that you nailed down 90% of the coins in one swoop. I never have a batting average anywhere near that. I'm normally happy with a 20% batting average. So congratulations on that!

By the way, I've had good experience with ANACS coins crossing too. Coin Dealer Newsletter rates ANACS far below ICG and that's not my experience.

Have a blast!

Just Having Fun!

Boom

I've just started picking up a few ANACS with the same game plan I have used on every other type
slab out there. I am optimistic-rather excited because I see very nice coins in the ANACS slabs go

for next to nothing. I've been fortunate when I have sent the coins in their slabs. But as in the case of that NTC 64 that is now a PCGS 63 1932-S Quarter- I do believe that human nature being

what it is, there would have been an immediate opinion without giving the coin the benefit of a second look. I have had some actually upgrade-now THAT is really cool. It's the same old same old-look

at the coin. Forget the plastic and just look at the coins and go from there. We've all looked at enough coins to know what looks right and what does not. If it doesn't set well with you-put it back down.

All these years of looking and learning has paid off in a big way for me, Shoot, anybody can go out and but an expensive coin but it's really a thrill to find a Gem in the "unwanted bin!"

wondercoin

My 2 cents:

Boom: It appears you have done very well upgrading Wash quarters, so the rest of this is not intended for you - just general "chit chat".

The "upgrading" game reminds me of gambling in Las Vegas. You meet "winner" after "winner", balckjack expert after blackjack expert, even guys who are convinced they know when the dice are "hot" or when they have found the "perfect machine" and big money can be made. Yet, what has been my very best performing stock segment in my entire stock portfolio over the past 12-18 months - GAMING. My purchase of Caesars stock is up around 100% in the past 12-18 months and my purchase of Aztar (Tropicana) is not far behind! Let's face it - the house nearly always wins in the end and the "house" in this case is PCGS and NGC (and perhaps the other grading companies that do well). Yes, there are the true "card counters who can always make money in the casinos and there are the true world class graders who can always make REAL, SERIOUS money playing the upgrade game. But, then there are the other 95% - 98% of the folks out there

Wondercoin.

INXS

For me ICG makes coin collecting affordable. True the grades are lower but so are the prices. My PCGS registry sets are stagnant right now because I cannot afford to upgrade due to the prices of the coins I collect in PCGS holders. These PCGS sets were put together 3 years ago, when I started my sets the prices were stable. Currently these coins are what I call "frenzied buys" people get so wrapped up in the bidding or buying that they are going for 5 to 6 times the actual worth. I dont collect as an investment or sell as a dealer, I enjoy collecting so buying a $1 coin for $600 just doesnt seem practical to me, buts thats me. After all just like the stock market if the bottom drops out that $600 coin is only worth a buck. Once again this is my own personal feeling I dont mean to step on anyones toes that are really into high end collecting.

Cameonut

My experience with ICG has been so-so at best. Of four coins sent in for crossover, none crossed at PCGS. Cracked them out and resubmitted - ICG got the cam/dcam right but the grades were 1-2 points lower. I now own exactly zero ICG coins - and not likely to buy more - especially sight un-seen.

They did fix a problem with a 1970 small date dcam cent that was actually a large date. Took three months and several phone calls, but they made me whole.

As James Taylor at ICG would say - adios.
I agree
Cameonut

coinkat

I have never submitted to them... I have seen some nineteenth century stuff that looked okay. I don't really buy modern proofs so I am not able to offer an opinion.

Boom

I just picked up a couple of ICG 67 Quarters dirt cheap and am quite confident they will cross one

grade lower! They're nice, hand picked pieces!

Justhavingfun

<<I just picked up a couple of ICG 67 Quarters dirt cheap and am quite confident they will cross one grade lower! >>

Thank you, Boom.

What you say matches my experience and what the overwhelming majority of people who have responded to this thread say: That the ICG slabs are "el cheapos". So where does the Coin Dealer Newsletter get off saying that sight unseen, the ICG slabs pull more bread than PCGS slabs? It's nonsense.

Just Having Fun!

tradedollarnut

Based on my own experience, most [but not all] PCGS graded coins are very eye appealing for the grade. In a rising market, the premium associated with this eye appeal goes up and up. Correspondingly, the percentage ratio of sight unseen vs sight seen value drops.

Colorfulcoins

Here's my recent (last 2 years) experience with trying to cross ICG holdered Roosevelt Dimes to PCGS:

- (2) ICG MS68's crossed as PCGS MS67FB's, (1) as a MS67 non-band (as expected)

- (1) ICG MS67 crossed as a PCGS MS67 (as expected)

I have 3 more ICG MS68's at PCGS right now and I'm guessing 2 of them will cross at MS67FB (one may be a shot MS68FB but I'm probably just wishing)......and the 3rd one is a question mark. As Boom noted previously, these were all selectively chosen for their "cross-ability"....whether PCGS agress or not remains to be seen.

But.......I have probably crossed 50 NGC MS67's to PCGS MS67's so it speaks volumes that I've only found a handfull of MS67/68 ICG's worthy enough to send to PCGS for cross!