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The morning after...

This morning after MW and Botn woke up what do you think they were thinking about last night?


A. I kicked some but.. last night!


B. Is there any way to make that thread go away?


C. The other guy is an idiot and the whole world will believe my side of the story.


D. I just really hurt the integrity of the vintage card business.



I know which one I think it is in reality but I doubt either of them would pick that one.



Wayne
1955 Bowman Football
«1

Comments

  • Both of those guys are self-proclaimed card messiahs, bringing the good word to the rest of us "pagan" collectors who don't know anything. In reality they live in their own little worlds.


  • << <i> D. I just really hurt the integrity of the vintage card business. >>



    I love collecting, but the integrity of this "business" has always been in the realm of car sales and health club memberships. Therefore, I don't believe they hurt the fine reputation of the card industry, but just provided additional evidence that swindlers will flock to where the suckers are.

    And if you’re a car salesman or health club employee, it wasn’t an attack on you, but your industry. I’m a banker, but don’t place the face of my industry next to puppy dogs and lil’ old grandmas.
    “Think of how stupid the average person is, and realize half of them are stupider than that.” - George Carlin
  • kobykoby Posts: 1,699 ✭✭


    << <i>MW
    (no login)
    Reply April 22 2004, 7:50 PM

    Greg,

    I freely admit that I have purchased cards from Dick Towle ("Gone with the Stain") and sent cards to him for restoration.
    >>






    image



    I thought that it was refreshing to see MW finally come clean. In some ways, it must have been somewhat cathartic for him, so I would add an Option E:



    E. I have been so self-righteous and pious for so long. I am glad that I no longer have to hide my own dirty secrets.

  • zsz70zsz70 Posts: 541
    Wayne,

    I'll choose letter C.

    marc
  • schr1stschr1st Posts: 1,677 ✭✭
    I'm thinking more along the lines of David Byrne in Once In a Lifetime:

    And you may ask yourself
    What is that beautiful house?
    And you may ask yourself
    Where does that highway go?
    And you may ask yourself
    Am I right?...Am I wrong?
    And you may tell yourself
    MY GOD!...WHAT HAVE I DONE?
    Who is Rober Maris?


  • << <i>I love collecting, but the integrity of this "business" has always been in the realm of car sales and health club memberships. >>


    With all due respect, I beg to differ. It has not always been this way. In fact, it didn't get "this way" until the early 1980's. I have no illusions that the 'good old days" will ever return, but there are some of us that are still around from when it was 95% hobby and 5% business.

    Scott
  • CON40CON40 Posts: 1,324 ✭✭✭
    People like MW and BOTN are what you get in a business where education, skill, experience, intelligence, integrity, conviction, compassion, morality, and ethics are not required to succeed. I'm not saying all dealers are like these two. Many are great people who cherish the hobby more than their bank accounts. Not those two.

    I see people like MW and BOTN as the types of individuals who aspired to be ambulance chasing schuysters, but lacked the motivation to earn an education before a stealing -- err.. earning-- their money.

    I don't seem them any differently than that criminal who stole Pete Pihos' personal trove of memorabilia.

    Call me cynical, but this is what I truly believe.
  • TipemTipem Posts: 881


    Wayne,


    image


    Vic
    Please be kind to me. Even though I'm now a former postal employee, I'm still capable of snapping at any time.
  • ScumbiScumbi Posts: 268
    We will all remember April 22nd like July 4th now. Last night, the Declaration of Incontinence was written and signed. Follow up:

    BOTN - Done. Hari-Kari. Kaput.
    MW - Will probably go to law school now and become a P.I. attorney
    SGC - Goodnight. PRO has more value on open market.
    PSA - No change. However, some involvement means that the graders will be checking those high dollar cards a bit closer for the next few months. Makes you wonder about breaking out and resubmitting.
    Mastro - Apparently not only runs auction house, but can write nice little fairy tales as well. Probably won't get hurt. But, might kill insane potential of high dollar lots in this auction.
    GAI - Will finally have to explain their wax pack grading so it makes some sense. How can they tell if the pack was opened if they don't open it and glue it shut again?

    Overall, I don't think this will hurt the hobby. Last night, we received confirmation on something we all suspected. I don't think people want to investigate this too closely like WIWAG. They don't want to know the truth. Would you if you spent 45 thousand dollars on a card? We all have too much time and money invested in our collections to opt out of the illusion now. It would be suicide much like the boys committed last night. It reminded me of A FEW GOOD MEN when Nicholson finally blew up and gave the "you can't handle the truth" speech. I don't think either realized what they were doing until it was too late.

    The hobby is deeper than two wacky and zany dealers. We'll have plenty to talk about for the next couple of weeks, but EBAY prices keep rising. A PSA 5 Hornsby #119 sold for 600 dollars yesterday. I think that's double book. Of course, some commons are falling now that sets are complete, but there seems to be enough new people looking to collect at each grade level and dealers willing to clip and resubmit to provide a safety net on prices.

    Besides, this card stuff isn't that important now that we have A-Rod quarters to buy. How long until the rolled Steve Howe hundred dollar bill is unveiled? Now, that's something that's guaranteed to keep you up at night.image


  • << <i>With all due respect, I beg to differ. It has not always been this way. In fact, it didn't get "this way" until the early 1980's. I have no illusions that the 'good old days" will ever return, but there are some of us that are still around from when it was 95% hobby and 5% business. >>



    That was the point I attempted to make: when it became an unregulated business, so came the snake oil salesman. We can fault the aforementioned dealers (I don’t know them, but one has been very kind and responsive to previous questions), but they don’t flourish unless there’s a market.

    People often compare this to the stock market or other investment field, but this "industry" lacks the proper checks and balances. Card grading is a step in the right direction regarding fraud, but has it’s obvious glitches.
    “Think of how stupid the average person is, and realize half of them are stupider than that.” - George Carlin
  • Scumbi, you keep posting sentiments that hit like a gut punch, but only so because the truth hurts!

    Nice!

    image
    “Think of how stupid the average person is, and realize half of them are stupider than that.” - George Carlin
  • murcerfanmurcerfan Posts: 2,329 ✭✭
    SGC - Goodnight. PRO has more value on open market.

    where did you get this one from ?
    how did this turn into an anti-SGC issue ?

    .......please elaborate.

    feel free to PM if you like.
  • C. The other guy is an idiot and the whole world will believe my side of the story.



    (followed closely by the thought, "did I remember to take my medications yesterday?")

    Both these clowns are mental and undoubtedly "short" in more ways than one.


  • << <i>SGC - Goodnight. PRO has more value on open market.

    where did you get this one from ?
    how did this turn into an anti-SGC issue ?

    .......please elaborate.

    feel free to PM if you like. >>



    who made this ridiculous accusation?
  • ctsoxfanctsoxfan Posts: 6,246 ✭✭


    << <i>

    << <i> D. I just really hurt the integrity of the vintage card business. >>



    I love collecting, but the integrity of this "business" has always been in the realm of car sales and health club memberships. Therefore, I don't believe they hurt the fine reputation of the card industry, but just provided additional evidence that swindlers will flock to where the suckers are.

    And if you’re a car salesman or health club employee, it wasn’t an attack on you, but your industry. I’m a banker, but don’t place the face of my industry next to puppy dogs and lil’ old grandmas. >>



    As someone in the car business (for a long time), most card dealers I encounter make me look like Mother Teresa. I am not offended in the least by the above, I concur!
    image
  • Scenes from the big bout


    image

    image

    image
  • ScumbiScumbi Posts: 268
    I don't need to PM. MW has become firmly linked with SGC and vice-versa. MW admits sending cards to a restorer. Can you honestly tell me that his intention is to spend the cost of restoration to sell some cards at a two dollar profit on Ebay? Does anybody here want to buy restored cards? MW shouldn't have any association with a King of Stain Removal when his market is the top 0.00001 percent of collectors. Would you buy a Monet from a guy that also works with a known painting forger? I'm not saying SGC did anything wrong on purpose, however I wouldn't feel comfortable buying or sending my cards to them. I'm sure many of MW's cards are legit and truly magnificent. However, restored cards might have slipped through. It's the lay down with dog and wake up with fleas scenario for SGC. I feel there are better choices for grading now. I'd imagine most other people can see the connection. That's why I don't think it's a wise decision for a grading company to closely associate with one specific dealer.

    How do we know how advanced card restorers are? There's a lot we need to find out about that. I do not hold any grudge or ill feelings towards SGC. However, I question their level of expertise when it comes to detecting altered cards.

    I don't think that is too complicated.
  • murcerfanmurcerfan Posts: 2,329 ✭✭
    I disagree with your indictment of SGC.
  • ScumbiScumbi Posts: 268
    Dave,

    I'm not the most knowledgable collector on the site. There are many others who have put more time and effort into their research. However, I do spend time and have followed the market, grading companies and dealers. I have cards from MW. I have cards encapsulated in SGC holders. I have a decent collection. I'm not going to build a museum wing with what I have, but I do possess a few nice sets and rare issues. I'm fully competent to offer my opinions. You can choose to ignore them. Others can do the same. I know you have a lot of cards in SGC holders. Your issues are regional and rare. I don't think this will effect the value of your collection. However, you are writing in defense of your SGC slabs. I'm not writing in defense of anything.

    Yes, I am PSAtan and I was removed from the board because...I don't know? I received an email asking me to tone down the language in a Koby Bryant message I posted. The moderator was right. After re-reading it, it crossed the line. However, when I went to post again, I had been banned. No warning. No way of writing to the moderator. I stayed off the boards for almost a year. I did read them from time to time to keep up with what was going on. Thus, I decided to go back on the board. It was impossible to use the other moniker again so I made up a person.

    I think I had and do have something to offer the board. I don't live and die with my collection. It's a hobby. I have no agenda. I'm not so deeply interwoven into the community that I have anything to protect. I enjoy card collecting and I think there's stuff that needs to be said here. The hobby is not an oligarchy. If people choose to give your posts more creedence, that's fine. But, I am entitled to my opinion.

    I see a lot of self-serious people here thinking they know or are owed certain grades on cards. Card grading is subjective. If that is why you're here, then you're sure to be unhappy. I've always believed in the purity of the hobby and the magical effect the cards cast.

    If I'm booted off this site again, that's fine too. I've done nothing but give my honest opinion. I'm not tied to anyone here. I've purchased from some of the participants and made friends. Jay Wolt is probably the best guy in the hobby. I've had nothing but fun buying and talking cards with him.

    Also, I've never been critical of you. I've always been one the biggest admirers of your collection. I love regional cards. You have an amazing collection. Sadly, it's all about protecting dollars now. There's a lot of nonsense going on in this industry. Last night, MW and BOTN admitted it. I think it's alarming and damaging. I simply commentated on that. Don't you find this whole thing to be very sad?

    I think it was stupid to rejoin here and post on my part. It all falls on deaf ears clogged by the dollar bills spent on cards. I made two friends, John and Jay. I will meet them at some point. That's a large enough gift to get off of something like this.

    PSAtan/Scumbi but not BOTN (Give me a break)

  • BasiloneBasilone Posts: 2,492 ✭✭

    welcome back my man.
  • calleochocalleocho Posts: 1,569 ✭✭
    welcome back PSAtan!

    whenever i watch the japanese show with the voiceovers (most extreme elimination ..or something like that) i think of you.

    "Women should be obscene and not heard. "
    Groucho Marx
  • Scumbi -
    Now that you have returned, could you please replace your new (disturbing) icon with the old one?

    Murcerfan -
    I'm curious, was it the style of writing, the content of the posts or something else that gave him away?
  • VarghaVargha Posts: 2,392 ✭✭
    I thought that PSAtan was pretty darned funny.
  • So many juicy side stories on these boards, with card history and investment advice to boot, this is ultimate low cost entertainment.
    “Think of how stupid the average person is, and realize half of them are stupider than that.” - George Carlin


  • << <i>I love collecting, but the integrity of this "business" has always been in the realm of car sales and health club memberships. >>




    Ctsoxfan has the car business covered and I'm a partner in a health club.




    << <i>And if you’re a car salesman or health club employee, it wasn’t an attack on you, but your industry. >>




    No problem - I think it's great being in an industry where the competition has no morals. Besides that business I've been selling real estate for 17 years. Thank God for the car business - they keep us off the bottom as far as the least respected businesses. (Sorry Ctsoxfan).

    Glenngary - that is too funny!


    Scumbi - welcome back. I agree that you went a little too far last time but your insight can be great. I hope you stick to card collecting and I hope they keep you around this time.


    Wayne
    1955 Bowman Football
  • murcerfanmurcerfan Posts: 2,329 ✭✭
    I disagree with your rather severe indictment of SGC.
    saying they have less credence than PRO struck a nerve with me.
    How that conclusion was a benefit to the graded card hobby I do not understand.

    I do agree with you that all the grading companies are operating well below their respective potentials,
    and welcome you back and encourage the moderators to let you stay.

    however, the Icon must go image
  • BasiloneBasilone Posts: 2,492 ✭✭

    Word just got out in New York that hes back !!!

    image
  • murcerfanmurcerfan Posts: 2,329 ✭✭
    I he had just told me he was a Yankee fan...
    ........well, It would have helped a little.

    but I always thought Satan wore red socks.
  • ScumbiScumbi Posts: 268
    Thanks for the kind reception. Nice to be back, guys. Missed you. Murcerfan, let's forget the whole thing. I agree that all the grading companies have their own problems and robbing homes isn't too funny.

    As a gift for welcoming me back, I'll kill the perverted yoda thingy icon. It acutally made my girlfriend sick when she saw it and found out I was that guy. I think the new one looks a little more like me too. I didn't see it the first time around.

    I look forward to catching up with all of you. I'm still working on my 1933 Goudey set trying to upgrade it (mid-grade). I'm also working on the Dan Dee set (mid-grade). And, of course, I still want curmudgeon's Hires Test Mays and all of Murcerfan's regional issues.

    Best,

    PSAtanumbi



  • DhjacksDhjacks Posts: 343 ✭✭
    Welcome back PSAtan. I did indeed miss reading your posts.
    Working on 1969 through 1975 Basketball.
  • BasiloneBasilone Posts: 2,492 ✭✭
    PSAtanumbi-

    hey bro...buy my tip top bread Berra.

    John
  • MantlefanMantlefan Posts: 1,079 ✭✭
    Welcome back PSAtan...btw, you're right about SGC...with their new owner's shady past and MW's shady present, they'll soon be gone.
    Frank

    Always looking for 1957 Topps BB in PSA 9!
  • John,

    That Berra is a beautiful card. I would love to add it to the the old pile sitting in the closet. What kind of financing are you offering these days? Please figure over a 72 month payment schedule with a large size balloon at the end.

    If there's anything I have for trading purposes, I'd be happy to figure something out. Let me know what you are pursuing these days.

    And, thanks again for the warm welcome. It really made my day.

    Best,

    PSAtanumbi

  • NickMNickM Posts: 4,895 ✭✭✭
    Welcome back PSAtan.

    BTW, have you been picking up any of the '33 Goudey PSa 4s that bbcexchange has had over the last few weeks on eBay? I got 5 of them (plus a PSA 4 Maranville from another seller) for 2/3 to 3/4 SMR.

    Nick
    image
    Reap the whirlwind.

    Need to buy something for the wife or girlfriend? Check out Vintage Designer Clothing.
  • grilloj39grilloj39 Posts: 370 ✭✭
    I disagree with this "guilt by association" with Dave Forman and SGC. SGC is and will continue to remain a solid grading company. I wish him and SGC the best.

    PSAtan...I welcome you back, but to say you made a single post and were booted off without any warning is disingenious IMO. Several of your posts had a "borderline" vulgar tone to them and I was surprised the moderator let you post as long as you did. Keep in mind some young collectors may peruse this board.
    Gold Coins
    Silver Coins

    e-bay ID: grilloj39
    e-mail: grilloj39@gmail.com
  • qualitycardsqualitycards Posts: 2,811 ✭✭✭
    PSAscum, errr! PSAtan, Scumalug or whatever you call yourself this week, its good to have you back. I miss your witty "novel size"posts, as it saves me from going to the library. I hope all is well...jay
  • This stuff is better than any "soap"...there are more twist and turns going on...it's hard to keep up sometimes...the games...the one-upsmanship...at least it's entertaining...never a dull moment...image
    Henri
    Collector
    Topps 58,59,60,61,62,63,64 Sets
    Fleer 60, 61-62 Sets
  • Frank,

    Shady? How about the 1963 PSA Pete Rose card debacle? My understanding is that MW did not send any restored cards to SGC for grading and when he put them up for sale he clearly stated they had been restored.

    Kosmo
  • murcerfanmurcerfan Posts: 2,329 ✭✭
    Frank also predicted that nobody on this board would or could buy a single lot in the Mastro auction.
  • grilloj39grilloj39 Posts: 370 ✭✭
    Murcerfan...I had my eye on the 1909 Jim Jeffries playing card graded set...It went for about 540.00 or so. I was going to bid on it but I got wrapped up on the golf course and forgot about the auction. I thought this was an excellent investment at a very affordable price. Oh, well, wasn't meant to be I guess.
    Gold Coins
    Silver Coins

    e-bay ID: grilloj39
    e-mail: grilloj39@gmail.com
  • Murcer,

    I missed that prediction by Frank. Too bad it's wrong already - I bought something last night (although it was a bat, and not a card..)

    Steve
  • ScumbiScumbi Posts: 268
    I wasn't able to acquire any of the PSA 4 cards that were up. There were a bunch of nice ones. I needed Dale Alexander and Danny MacFayden. They both shot through the roof so I didn't go after them. If you snagged your cards for underbook, you've done a good job. The ones I needed went for three times book. I'm thinking there's a few more scarcitites beyond #3 Critz, Cohen, Pipgras, etc.. I did see some good buys, but they were cards I had in the same grade or higher. Somebody seemed pretty intent on putting together a set of all PSA 4s. However, PSA 4 seems to be a good place to be right now for the set. The jump to PSA 5 is huge on HOFers especially low numbers. Vance, Simmons, Foxx, Collins and Grimes in particular. Plus, the jump on Ruth and Gehrig to PSA 5 is gigantc. PSA 5 commons can be affordable. It just depends on luck. It seems like the 1933 Goudey cards are very collectible right now. Jay at qualitycards.com has a nice assortment in the grades we collect. He's a complete gentleman. Also, if you have any doubles, send me a list. I have a few. Maybe we'll be lucky and find a few cards that help each other.

    Best,

    P-Satan-Gum-Bi

    Still can't figure out how to combine my two names
  • WinPitcherWinPitcher Posts: 27,726 ✭✭✭
    how about stambi?
    Good for you.
  • CWCW Posts: 1,213 ✭✭✭


    << <i>This morning after MW and Botn woke up what do you think they
    were thinking about last night? >>



    My guess is... "Whoa. How much crack did I smoke?!?!"


    Also gotta offer up a welcome to the ol' PSAtan. Good to have
    you back. Don't know if it will help with a new nickname, but
    the character in your icon is "Special Ed" from Crank Yankers.
  • GriffinsGriffins Posts: 6,076 ✭✭✭
    With all the stuff that went on this week its good to end on some good news.
    Welcome back Psatan. You need your old sig line back.

    Always looking for Topps Salesman Samples, pre '51 unopened packs, E90-2, E91a, N690 Kalamazoo Bats, and T204 Square Frame Ramly's

  • ScumbiScumbi Posts: 268
    I'd sure like to have PSAtan back with that bow down icon. Maybe someone can help me. I don't see how I can alter my moniker. Also, I don't remember the name of the old icon. There's like fourteen million now. It would take me three months to sample each one. However, I'll try to figure it out.

    Regardless, all the welcome backs are sincerely felt. I appreciate it. We all had a bunch of good laughs. Let's start that up again.

    Best,

    PSAtan Forever
  • ranchranch Posts: 341


    << <i>I'd sure like to have PSAtan back with that bow down icon. Maybe someone can help me. >>




    icon_snake_worship.gif
  • wolfbearwolfbear Posts: 2,759 ✭✭✭

    Hey grilloj39 - dude, I feel your pain.
    I was forced to play golf myself Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, and Friday this week.

    And if that wasn't bad enough,
    I've got to go play a in a scramble Saturday morn, and then play again on Sunday.

    It's not so much the golf that gets to you, it's all the beer you've forced to drink during the round.
    Man, it's tough work, but somebody's got to do it. image

    I'd just like to add that the MW vs BOTN bout has been more fun than a barrel of monkees ( the group ).

    Also, I don't understand why you guys like satan so much. I thought he was supposed to be bad or something ? ...


    Pix of 'My Kids'

    "How about a little fire Scarecrow ?"
  • Angel of light...deceives many.

    Also this board's example is erudite, a skillful wordsmith, with a plethora of linguistic skills. He knows that and takes advantage of it. As long as he keeps it clean, it's funny. Even the personal jabs. Most of us need to get over ourselves. It's a message board, not a courtroom or Presidential Campaign Podium.
  • Wolfbear,


    Where do I apply for a job just like yours???


    Wayne
    1955 Bowman Football
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