Rough cuts okay for PSA?

phreakydancin

As a newbie to graded cards, I'm still trying to educate myself on what constitutes a flaw or not.

For example: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=4125043408. This card has obvious rough cuts on both left and right edges, yet still earned a Gem Mint grade. Is this something that PSA allows for in older cards? Personally, I can't see how a card could be "gem mint" without 4 clean edges.

Thoughts?

CON40

PSA seems to like rough cuts because it is irrefutable evidence that the card has not been altered... it's just the way they were made and PSA doesn't penalize for that!

envoy98

Ok, I don't want to start anything, but isn't that the major knock on BVG? They treated cards from different era's differently...

This thing looks a lot worse than a rough cut, that looks like edge chipping to me. That is THE WORST PSA 10 I think I've ever seen, at least in terms of eye appeal.

packCollector

very few vintage opc hockey and baseball cards come without a rough cut. if they have 4 sharp edges, they are sheet cut. depending on the degree of the rough cut depends how high the card can go. a rough cut with notches will probably be an 8 , cleaner rough cuts will yield grades higher. I always look for the rough cut on vintage opc and will not buy it without. not to beat a dead horse but the 1/1 74 opc orr psa 9 didn't have a rough cut and it was a sheet cut card that slipped by psa.

packCollector

envoy, if psa did not allow for rough cuts on vintage opc , there wouldn't be ANY cards graded over a 6. that is how they are made and the way they came from the factory. they are not treating cards from different era's differently, they are using their professional knowledge to grade an issue acurately based on how they were made.

Butcher

I'm not familiar with vintage OPC hockey but is the diamond cut also common with the year shown? Packcollector, I see your point on the OPC hockey but where I have a problem with rough cuts is when you have 2 vintage psa 9's of the same card and one is cut perfectly and the other exhibits a rough cut.

phreakydancin

As I understand the old OPC cutting process, the cards were cut using wires which dulled quickly and were not changed often enough. The longer OPC waited between changes, the rougher the cards edges became. However, one has to assume that if you managed to get a card that was cut by freshly-changed wires, you would have a non-rough cut card with clean edges.

So if it is possible to pull a clean cut card, however improbable, should that not be the standard for a Gem Mint 10?

TheRoach

This is why I do not like grading too much. One of the flaws for sure. The way I see it is if the card does not meet the guidelines of a GEM MINT or MINT grade, then it should not get one. Seems pretty logical to me.

I don't care how the cards were produced or on what kind of paper, if it isn't worthy of a higher grade, then don't give it one. Even if there is never anything higher than a 7 ever graded because of the method they used back then to cut them, or because of the paper they were printed on, that shouldn't matter to anyone. It would all be relative. If the best copy of any of these cards was a 6, then in the eyes of many collector's, the 6 would be like a std for a MINT copy, right? The 5 would be like an 8, and so on.

Giving out a GEM MINT grade just because, is completely insane. Personally if I bought this card off Ebay and the seller did not have a scan, but advertised at as a PSA 10, I would be really upset when the card arrived. Not at the seller though.

This is a great example of how the card in the holder is still just an opinion. Nothing "guarantees" any card to be in the condition that it was graded to some extent. My "10" and any other grading company's "10" could be completely different.

You are buying a number when someone purchases a graded card. I have to admit, I have seen plenty of terribley chipped '87 Fleer Barry Bonds rookies that were given PSA 10's in my time. Definitely should have been 9's or 8's. Some were even off centered 65/35 on the front. Just calling it how I seen them. It's facts, not fiction.


TheRoach

envoy98

I have to say I agree with Roach. My point was exactly that. I was under the impression everyone hated BVG, even those on the Beckett boards, primarily because they were treating cards differently. I remember reading a thread on that very topic several months back on this board. It seemed everyone had the opinion that Roach does. I agree, some cards aren't ever going to be a 10, but hasn't the standard been set? How is a BVG 9.5 worth anything comparable to a BGS 9.5 when that same card in a BGS holder would have been a 7 let's say? I realize the separation here is that PSA is one in the same on vintage vs. modern but shouldn't that take away some of the allure of a 10, knowing the same cut/surface etc of card from modern era would grade a full grade, perhaps 2 grades lower? I realize it doesn't make a difference as can be seen my this very example...

I don't want to take this thread too far OT and I know this has been hashed out numerous times already, but since the thread was posted and was already going down this road...

If I received this card and hadn't seen it, I would be extremely disappointed. The eye appeal is terrible, to me a 10 is the pristine example of eye appeal, this does not exhibit that.

Oh and packcollector, since you seem to know a fair amount about these sets... How do you tell a fake Gretzky rc from OPC? Seems the edges are a huge indicator, but is there anything else? YOu can PM that to me if you know, I don't want to take this thread any more OT than it already is going...no thanks to me either, I realize.

packCollector

I think one important point that the roach made is that grading is an opinion and so is collecting. preferences are never the same. by what the roach says , he would be happy with the sheet cut orr where I would be fuming. he would be fuming with the rough cut opc 10 and i would be happy. to each his own and that is pretty much what grading is about. if you don't like rough cuts , don't collect opc. if you like cards made on think plastic that need to be dropped off the empire state building to be damaged, collect modern. everyone has a choice to what they collect and the make their decisions accordingly. we should not all try to understand what we don't have any interest in, I will never understand modern and will never try to because it doesn't interest me.

edited to add :

envoy, don't know anything about that but I am sure there are plenty of good sources on these boards that can help you. I collect bobby orr and his last year was 78 so no info on 79's. I also have some vintage opc in baseball that has come from many sources and all of it has rough cuts. I recently sold a 72 orr IA psa 9 which had a very minimal rough cut. probably from fresh wires but it was still there. It was probably the best legit cut that I have seeen on vintage opc but it was still there when looking closely.

phreakydancin

Envoy, Beckett has a good 3-part article on spotting fake Gretzky RCs here.

envoy98

Thanks phreaky, that is a great article. Wish I had a gram scale.

envoy98

<< <i>we should not all try to understand what we don't have any interest in >>



I whole-heartedly agree.

The beauty of this hobby is the abilty for so many of us to collect so many varied things and still be a brotherhood so to speak. As well as the ability to discuss so many things related to the hobby without having to neccessarily discuss our particular likes/dislikes. Granted, it sometimes gets a little heated between the vintage guys and the modern guys, not unlike the days I used to drag race. My point is, there generally is very little in-fighting going on (think Ford v Chevy).

My only gripe is that little kids are hard pressed to afford this hobby. I think that's why you see such a huge population of Yu-Gi-Oh & Pokemon. If I hadn't been able to afford cards when I was a little kid, I wouldn't be collecting now. In fact, I'm 27, when I was 11, I remember 1988 Fleer coming out and it was $1 a pack!!!! HOLY CRAP! a buck a pack! I stopped collecting in 89. Didn't start again til Football season of '98. (Randy Moss, I'm a huge Vikes Fan) My first pack I opened was Fleer Brilliants, I got a blue brilliants parallel of Moss. I was hooked. Now I spend more than my house payment every month on cards. Oops.

sjeanblanc

A better title for the thread would be "Rough cuts okay for OPC?". Rough cuts on non-OPC cards will be graded the way that Roach described, but OPC's are a different animal. A very low percentage of any years OPC cards will come out with little or no roughage. The rest will have varying degrees of roughness from just one side to all four. So you have to take the card in the context of which is was produced.

One of the problems with OPC's is there tends to be alot of uncut sheets lying around and this presents a problem. Having been burned in the past, there are two things that I look for when buying a high grade OPC card:

1) Are the edges too clean? (usually denotes a sheet cut card, but not always)

2) Does the card appear to be arched? (this coupled with condition 1 has always produced a card that PSA will not grade.)

If the OPC card is legit, and PSA determines this by the cut grain on the side of the card, as sheet cut cards will not have the same grain cut as a factory cut card.

If there is an OPC card in a PSA holder, I would trust it hands down over anyone elses holder. As for the grades, I had a 78 OPC Ryan that had the "Grizzley Adams" effect on all four edges and it got a PSA 8. I have a 75 OPC Ryan with clean edges and 2 minor edge chips and it is a PSA 9. I have a 77 OPC Ryan Record Breaker with minor ruff edges, sharp corners and pure white color and it is a PSA 10.

These OPC cards are very hard to come by period, let alone in a gradable (PSA 7,8,9 or 10) condition, if you don't cut them some amount of slack for the Paleolithic way they were manufactured. I also believe this is why OPC doesn't have a big following outside of the Player collector market.

My 2cents,

Scott Jeanblanc
jeanblanc@iconnect.net
Ebay UserId : sjeanblanc
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Collecting Nolan Ryan cards (68-94)

67standup

<< <i>
If there is an OPC card in a PSA holder, I would trust it hands down over anyone elses holder. >>



As one who's submitted many OPCs I agree with this assertion. I'm a big fan of SGC, but they are very tough on these cards, which is probably bittersweet. There's been many high grade BVG examples for sale- especially '74s - I'm a little skeptical of those.

envoy98

Thanks sjeanblanc, terrific post.