Loupes, do you use them?

BarkusD

Another member asked about loupes at the end of a post and I thought it is a good topic for the board. Does everyone use a loupe and if so, what kind?

I had to do a bit of a search for a loupe. I ended up buying one at a local craft store because they had a huge selection. Mine cost I think around $25 has 10x magnification and a built in very fine ruler around the borders to make it easy to measure centering. I love it and it has improved my submissions greatly. There is a lot you can't easily see with the naked eye that the loupe brings out. I think it is a must have in the new era of card grading.

Here's the real question, do any of you bring your loupes to card shops or shows when looking at commons? I have some local shops that sell me commons from set breaks at a great price. I feel like if I brought in a loupe and only took the 8s or better (instead of a few 7s here and there because I don't have my loupe) they might start grading the cards or charging me a premium for the ones I want. Any thoughts/ experiences?

Wabittwax

It generally upsets dealers if you use a loupe while looking at tons of cards. It takes a lot of time and you only end up buying a couple cards. My guess is that they would raise their prices on you. Plus you would be alerting them to the fact that you are going to grade them which means that it is probably profitable which will lead them to start grading the cards first and making the profit on them. When I go to card show tables looking for a nice 1965 Topps Charlie Smith, I never tell them why I want it. Playing stupid in those situations serves you best.

scottsusor

Oh c'mon -- Do you really think a dealer would jack up prices just because somebody is using a loupe to look at his/her cards? Why should "taking a lot of time" matter? Its YOUR time, not his/hers. I'll say this -- I've never seen it happen. I always confirm the prices before starting to search. And you don't pay for the cards before you get them, so if some goofy dealer decided to double the price on the little stack of commons I pulled, I'd say, "No thanks," leave him with a pulled stack of cards and walk away. I know plenty of dealers and I don't know a single one who sells raw cards that's going to discriminate against somebody with a loupe, and risk a sale because of it. That's just silly.

Scott

norty

Gee is that what all those guys were doing at my table? 3X guide from now on.

murcerfan

I would recommend getting one that is lighted, preferably the ones that take 2 C batteries.
most shows are so dark that your loupe won't make much difference without it.
Steve Taft used to always sell these at shows.
1954 "wound up" with my good one after a long sit-down with the TIKs in AC.
No one really knows what happened... he just sort of wandered off.. sniffing drain-pipes on down the boardwalk ..........or was that rue morgue avenue?

If you really want the dealer to squirm.....whip out a portable blacklight too.
the reactions are usually worth the cost of admission.

gemint

<< <i>If you really want the dealer to squirm.....whip out a portable blacklight too.
the reactions are usually worth the cost of admission. >>



I know what you mean. I get the "one eye" often because I use a loupe and caliper when going through cards at shows. I've never had a dealer raise prices on me. But a certain famous "set breaker" (not Norty) believes his raw cards are worth the PSA 8 SMR. I don't think he likes me too much. Last time I went through his mostly NM/NM+ 1969 binder and bought a single common because he told me up front the price would be $10 per card. He once offered me his best 1971 raw set for the paultry sum of $30,000.

murcerfan

I remember when 707 used to set up with adjustable halogens.

....as a buyer, that said a lot.....especially for a crew selling 95% graded material.

I remember a few other guys doing the same. I wish more of you guys would start doing so.

I remember the floor at the last Chicago Floor being so dark that I wanted to buy a headlamp.

when a wrinkle can mean hundreds of dollars...............

itsawonderfullife

I'll let all of you in on a little secret. I have a special set of "reading glasses" that actually magnifies close subjects around 3X. I put these on as I look at cards at shows, and those things have paid for themselves onehundredfold and dealers never know the wiser. And yes, it's my experience that dealers always like to believe that they make final profit on a sold card. Giving them any ideas that you are going to make money off of their inventory can only result in them raising their prices so to cut out the middleman.

Basilone

<< <i>I'll let all of you in on a little secret. I have a special set of "reading glasses" that actually magnifies close subjects around 3X. I put these on as I look at cards at shows, and those things have paid for themselves onehundredfold and dealers never know the wiser. >>



They probably come in handy at strip bars as well.....

Wabittwax

I've been setting up at shows for the last 8 years and I guarantee you that is pisses some dealers off. I hear the comments after the customer walks away. Not all dealers, but some. For myself, I really don't care because I know that nothing raw that is gradable will be found at my table because I am knowledgable about grading, so they can loupe all they want.

ctsoxfan

<< <i>I really don't care because I know that nothing raw that is gradable will be found at my table because I am knowledgable about grading, so they can loupe all they want. >>



Finally, an honest admission...and this again is why you guys on scavenger hunts for high grade raw cards (that does include me, unfortunately) are just about always disappointed. No intelligent dealer is letting his high grade raw cards go without either grading them himself, or selling them at a premium to someone who he knows will. Bring loupes to shows all day, I doubt it will help you.

Fuzz

John,
If you need 3x glasses at the bar ................ then you are going to the wrong bars.
Fuzz

norty

ctsoxfan:

I can't let this one pass. Many people find high grade gradeable cards at my table. Am I stupid? Do I not know the value of graded cards? No I'm not stupid (hey even though I am a product of a public school system, I did make it through 4 years of college, law school, 2 bar exams from 2 different states, and a graduate degree program). Yes I know the value of graded cards. Just look at the set-builders2 site for the month of April. Do my customers find tons of high grade gradeable cards? Probably not but you'd have to ask them.


With due respect, I see LOTS and LOTS of cards. I have a huge inventory. I don't take many chances with what I submit and yes there are high grade gradeable cards left in my books. I also don't grade certain years, due to market conditions. Further, the repeat business I've had from loyal customers has more than made up for any cards I didn't sell for a premium. If you don't believe me, ask some of my customers who are submitters on this board.

ctsoxfan

Norty, you may be the exception to the rule. I wanted to check out your table at the last Fort show, but did not (will you be there in two weeks?). Many people have said that your table is a great source of raw, but gradeable cards for their sets. I will not disagree, and look forward to meeting with you and seeing your offerings soon. But, a lot of what I usually see at shows is dealers either clearing out their EX-MT or lower cards, or the usual graded dealers asking $9995.00 for that Mantle that books $200 raw (just an exaggeration, don't take that literally). And, if you go to a show, loupe in hand, and try to find nice raw cards to grade, you will certainly ruffle your share of feathers, and probably go home disappointed.

ejguru

As one of Norty's regulars, I make it a point to make it my first stop at the show. Do I find vintage GM 10's in his books? No. Should I? No. Obviously there are enough NM+ cards in those books to get a loyal following. Sure, if he took all of them out, it would be his choice, but I'd still look and then look again on ebay. There are a few other raw dealers that I know shop from (Cameo, Bradshaw, among others), that typically make the 4 hour roundtrip drive worthwhile.

ejguru

BTW--I am sure none of the 3 guys I mentioned give a CR@# that I use a loupe. If anything, they want me to be satisfied with the purchase, and don't worry one iota about someone complaining. Imagine outlawing loupes? Crazy. Imagine a dealer looking down their nose at a BUYER wanting to SPEND $ at their table. No way they'd get my return biz if I felt mistreated or slighted!

qualitycards

I too am a regular at Nortys table and recommend him highly. I've gotten some nice raw stuff and have won many graded cards off him on ebay as well. Its a regular who's who from the message boards at his table. He even is one of the few dealers that has chairs set out for his customers instead of us kneeling or bending over the binders for a long period of time.
Speaking of Ft Washington, word on the streets is that the legendary EJGURU will be setting up at the show in 2 weeks.
Do you still plan on handing out '67 cello packs to board members? ...jay

marz

<< <i>I would recommend getting one that is lighted, preferably the ones that take 2 C batteries.
most shows are so dark that your loupe won't make much difference without it.
Steve Taft used to always sell these at shows.
1954 "wound up" with my good one after a long sit-down with the TIKs in AC.
No one really knows what happened... he just sort of wandered off.. sniffing drain-pipes on down the boardwalk ..........or was that rue morgue avenue?

If you really want the dealer to squirm.....whip out a portable blacklight too.
the reactions are usually worth the cost of admission. >>




I SELL THESE AS I DID TO YOU FOR $13 POSTPAID VIA PAYPAL.............

LOMISMO@EARTHLINK.NET

Boopotts

ctsox-

I think you hit the nail on the head. And in response to scott, yes-- I've personally had prices jacked up on me, and I'm sure others here have as well.

The problem with screwing around with a loupe at a show it that the dealer usually has to make extra accomodations for you. This isn't true if you're farting around in a binder full of '68 or '69's, since you can usually plunk down at the corner of the table and stay out of the way. But if you're going to look through the showcase-- and this is usually the place to look-- you'll have to have the dealer hand you the stack of '61's, then the 62's, the 63's, etc. etc, then have him put them back in the showcase after you've decided there's nothing there you want. If the showcase is at all stocked, this can go on for HOURS, which means the dealer has to constantly tend to you while you scrutinize-- and usually reject- every card in his collection.

jrdolan

Someone said an intelligent dealer would not sell high-grade raw cards without grading them himself. That may be so for really vintage stuff, but when commons are worth $$10-15 even as PSA 8, it doesn't make much economic sense to spend $5 or more to each get them slabbed. For the seller, I mean. The buyer has different motivations.

This is the dilemma for people looking for certain low-demand cards in the 1970s and 80s. Dealers are reluctant to pay to grade and slab a card that's not going to sell for very much even if the expected grade is achieved. They leave that cost to the person who REALLY wants it graded. So you buy the card raw and trust the seller and your own judgment that it's not a trim job.

Anyway, that's a situation where high-grade raw cards are legitimately offered for sale.

Basilone

The game changes when you talk about the 50's (an a few 60's issues) in PSA 8.

Best of Luck guys finding that stuff in PSA 8.

Stuff from the Mid to Late 60's & the 70's is your best bet at shows.

scottsusor

Give me the names and email addresses of three dealers who "get pissed off and jack up prices" when somebody uses a loupe at their table ... I want to contact them to see if they really risk the loss of sales and customers over this ... Put the answer right here:

1.
2.
3.

Scott

ejguru

Yes Jay--it is true. Myself and a fellow board/registry member (or two) will be pinch hitting for a regular with a conflict in his calendar. Not sure yet what I'll be showing/selling, but thanks to your handy dandy email/phone course ("How to be a sportscard dealer in 5 days or less"), I have a chance to break even and have some fun. If anyone wants to see a spectacular car crash, stop by!

dude

<<Give me the names and email addresses of three dealers who "get pissed off and jack up prices" when somebody uses a loupe at their table ... I want to contact them to see if they really risk the loss of sales and customers over this ... Put the answer right here: >>

I can name two dealers (Scott Bradshaw and Rich Gove) that are already pissed and as a result have permanently jacked up their raw card prices (selling raw at SMR) because they know people will buy their cards and have them graded. Both of these guys have given me long sob stories about people buying their cards and later finding out they graded those cards and got 9s and now those cards are worth a signficant amount more than what they paid for them and to them, that's their justification for selling that high. As for the loupe, when you buy from one of those two dealers, it's a one-on-one consultation at his table. If you pull a loupe out and look at all 4 corners of every card you like and if they are people waiting in line behind you, yeah, he'll be pretty irritated and don't expect any wiggle room or volume discount when he tally ups your tab.

(edited for spelling)

ctsoxfan

Dude, that is exactly right. I have often gone through piles and piles of cards at a dealer table (no loupe, I am sure that would just be asking for trouble), and sometimes bought only a couple of cards, and sometimes none. When you walk away, the dealer never seems particularly happy that you sifted through all of his cards and bought very little. If you add to that looking at a lot of the inventory through a loupe, you are going to piss off not only him, but anyone else trying to get at the table.

Sad thing is, most of the time, those cards have already been looked at through a loupe. By the dealer. If it was truly a mint card, you probably wouldn't be seeing it there. As for paying SMR for raw cards, I am not surprised, but would never think of it. What would you pay for, a potential PSA 8? Or a 9? What if the G.O.D. gets you, and it comes back a 7?

ejguru

Dude: I don't have as much of a problem with Scott or others charging SMR for raw. If Scott really is irritated with me, I haven't seen it, and would be surprised. That said, raw dealers will see less of my business NOT because of what they charge, but because PSA has put a practical moratorium on 9's. I have no issue paying 100% SMR if I can examine a card and (I believe) it has a reasonable chance of pulling MINT. Problem is, my success rate has dropped from like 10-15% MINT is down to 2-4%, not including my cello pack submissions.

My recent (past 6 months) submissions are reflective of a shift. What got a PSA 9 in 2001-early 2003 was harder than what it was prior to that, and more recently graded 9's are practically GM 10. Wish they would supervise a quality/consistency program that could break open 50 PSA 8's and 50 PSA 9's and let the grader(s) have at them. Can anyone comment if this is happening?

dude

EJ -- I've never seen Scott get overtly belligerent with customers, but I've seen him get very frustrated when very little is bought and you sat there for 30 minutes. I know - I've done it too him several times. A lot of it is brought on by himself. He'll ask if you wish to see his MINT binder or his Near Mint Binder and in reality the MINT binder is NM-MT to NM and the NM is actually low end NM or EX-MT or worse. I've been dealing with Scott for nearly 4 years and over that time I've bought very little, but the little that I have bought has been well worth the time and money such as a '67 Demeter that graded PSA 8 and a '67 Bird Bombers that graded PSA 9. I paid around $60 each card (raw).

As for the submitting part, it's really hard to say. The quality stuff isn't out there like it was before 2003. It's pretty hard to find Mint cards at shows anymore. When I went to the 2000 and 2001 Nationals, it was easy to buy 300 or 400 cards over three days and have 100 to 150 grade PSA 9, but the cards were nice. In fact at Anaheim (2000), I got a few 10s! A lot of dealers brought commons to sell that were pulled straight from vending or sometime they would put out a binder of a high-end set they just bought and they would pull the stars and sell off the rest of the cards real cheap. Those days are over.

gemint

I echo Dude's comments. Those "mint" binders contain cards that are marginally 8 material at best for the most part. If you can catch him when a new set comes in that hasn't been picked through, then there's a chance of getting some high grade stuff. The problem is there is no upside unless it's a really low pop card. I bought a nice 1961 Scowron AS from him which ended up grading an 8. The problem is, after tallying the purchase price and tacking on grading and shipping fees, I'm at the PSA 8 SMR price. So essentually what he's doing is passing on the grading risk to the customer, yet getting full SMR for the cards even if they don't make the expected grade.

I have no problem with these dealers doing what they're doing, I just rarely buy from them. Enough people must buy from them if they are able to continue to survive.

scottsusor

<< <i>I can name two dealers (Scott Bradshaw and Rich Govay) that are already pissed and as a result have permanently jacked up their raw card prices (selling raw at SMR) because they know people will buy their cards and have them graded. >>


Hold on here, this is apples and oranges. I know both of these guys (Rich lives in Houston and once drilled me in the ribs with a fastball after I hit a home run off him the previous at bat, but we're still friends, haha). And both of these guys SEPARATE THEIR HIGH GRADE INVENTORY (i.e. NM-MT and MINT) and mark it with higher prices. In fact, Scott Bradshaw keeps all his high grade stuff in separate binders and you have to ask to see them. He tells everyone up front what he's charging for cards from those binders and yes, its about double the price of what's in the binders on his table (which have NM and down), which is as it should be. Higher grade, higher price, and up front about it -- Both Rich and Scott.

And by the way, both Rich and Scott submit plenty of cards for professional grading themselves. They just don't have interest in submitting every raw card (i.e. commons) that they have. I talked with both in Chicago and neither mentioned to me how pissed off they were that people were buying their high grade stuff and getting it graded. And why would they? They're there to sell it, not submit it.

Try again.

Scott

dude

<<And by the way, both Rich and Scott submit plenty of cards for professional grading themselves. They just don't have interest in submitting every raw card (i.e. commons) that they have. I talked with both in Chicago and neither mentioned to me how pissed off they were that people were buying their high grade stuff and getting it graded. And why would they? They're there to sell it, not submit it.>>

I've known these guys for years. I've known Gove since the early to mid 90's when he worked out of California. I've had long conversations with both. Neither these guys started out selling raw '67 topps baseball low numbers for $12 or $15, but they do now. Sure, both know about grading and both now submit - I know that and that's probably why their raw "high-end" inventory is so mediocre. That's also been their justification for charging so much for their raw cards. I remember specifically having a very long conversation with Govay when he went from 1.5X to 2X Beckett to straight SMR for his raw cards (about a 500% price increase). He told me that he was sick and tired of dealers and collectors buying his stuff and getting it graded and had enough of it and that's why he charges SMR. He even gave me specific examples such as a guy from the Chicago area that cherry picked his inventory of his '65's and got a ton of 9's and then flew to Boston for Govay's next show so that he could buy more '65s plus more from other years. This was about 2 years ago when he made the big price increase. When I look at their stuff, the steaks are much, much higher. I have and will pull out a lighted magnifier in front of both of these dealer on a $15 card and it's not a welcome sight.

Sure, it's a free country and anyone can charge what they want. If you are happy buying their stuff, then that's wonderful.

(edited for spelling Gove)

murcerfan

is Rich Gove (sic Govay) the dealer in question here ?
or is this somebody else ?

dude

Yep, Gove (I've corrected the spelling). Thanks.

Basilone

I would never pay $12-14 for a 1967 raw common. I kind of equate buying raw to poker where one needs to calculate "pot odds" and the deteriming the probability of one of your "outs" being dealt.

The odds are just too long (in my opinion) when you are spending $14 for a raw late 60's common.

I've found the better play is to have patience and wait till the "have to have it" guys get their cards first...then buy.

murcerfan

I know that cat.....he's a good guy, but as you say Dan he does seem to want his cake and to eat it too, IMHO.
I once walked away from a pile of cards I had "cherry" picked (sans loupe) from some nice vending stacks he had, back at one of those downtown Philly Sportsfests, the price went up after he looked at what i had pulled.

Roger N. pulled the same crap at the last Cleveland natrional, after calling me "one of the sharks", he actually decided he wanted 1.5x SMR for a pile of raw cards, after he quoted me SMR before I sat down.......I gave him back his "furrowed brow" and he informed me that he didn't need my business nor my dirty looks. It has been suggested that he was having a bad day.
In fairness, he recently allowed me to sit at his back table with my "detective kit" and cherry out some '62 topps fb......he didn't get antsy until I started measuring things (all were fine BTW).
In the end he took my counter offer for these.

I'll get back with dealer #3 this evening.

dude

I consider Bradshaw and Gove both good guys in terms of ethics and I've had long and overall pleasant conversations with both. I just think they are closing the gate behind the horse that got lose and trying to make up for past lost opportunities. Pre-2001/2, Gove was one of the best. He had great quality raw cards and you would pay double Beckett, but I didn't have a problem with that since a lot of the cards were truly Mint. I recall him saying several times, "You never have to apologize for quality".

scottsusor

<< <i>Roger N. pulled the same crap at the last Cleveland natrional, after calling me "one of the sharks", he actually decided he wanted 1.5x SMR for a pile of raw cards, after he quoted me SMR before I sat down.......I gave him back his "furrowed brow" and he informed me that he didn't need my business nor my dirty looks. It has been suggested that he was having a bad day. >>


Bad day or not, this kind of crap is uncalled for. Its like a car salesman who has 9 junkers and 1 classic on his lot, with prices clearly marked. You come in and want the classic. The salesman says, "Oh ... well ... in that case, the price is double what's on the windshield because its the best car I've got."

Scott

murcerfan

This year I'll be sure to wear a cape over my dorsil fin

dude

murcerfan - That's an odd story about 'ole Roger N. He seems as nice as they come. My biggest problem with sitting down at his table is that he'll sit down beside you and ask, "How are you doing?" "How's the family? "What are you collecting..." and then 10 minutes later he'll finally start showing you some cards. As you probably know, time lost equals cards lost at shows.

I know he was never a big fan of grading, but I do have one interesting story. I asked him last year at a small Houston show if he had any nice high grade cards from the '60s. He said he did and walked away for a minute and come back with a huge stack of GAI cards. I asked why he got those graded by GAI. He told me that GAI the people come to his and many other dealers tables at a big show recently and offered to grade 50 or so cards free. So he got a stack of early '60's Topps football and some '67 Topps baseball graded absolutely free. He told me that in front of a bunch of people, so it didn't seem like a closely guarded secret.

dude

<<This year I'll be sure to wear a cape over my dorsil fin >>

LOL!!

murcerfan

I'm sure I'll get attacked for posting anything about that transaction, but I don't care any more.
that was not the point anyways.
The point was, that I agree that bright lights and magnifiers are not what some raw card dealers want to see at their tables and I too have heard the moans about customers "getting over on me" by grading something.

Hopefully this is something we can talk about in past-tense come august

but what really makes my feet get cold is when you loupe a graded card and get "the snarls".
I can only ask ............why would that be ?

.........must be all those sliders. Or maybe it's fear of getting Skirby-ed

scottsusor

I also get the feeling that a lot of guys that sell raw cards aren't big fans of professional grading ... But that doesn't mean they should necessarily have a problem with those that DO get cards professionally graded. I mean -- They're there to sell their raw cards. Why should it make a flip of difference who they sell them to and what the buyer is going to do with them down the road. Sheesh.

Scott

murcerfan

.........every creature aspires to be at the top of the food chain.

It also seems that some dealers don't understand that collectors slab cards they are NOT selling or trying to make $$ on.

I've been asked why I would grade a card that was just going into my collection?