Orlando show report....interesting.....very interesting..buy slabbed unless you REALLY know what you

TheLiberator

So I went to the Central Florida Coin Club show today. Some neat stuff and a lot of average stuff! One guy tried to sell me a raw 1928 peace "ms64." I told him I only buy slabbed, as I am no grader. He told me to walk it over to ANACS. I did. Results: cleaned a long time ago, retoned badly, au-58. OUCH!!! The dealer said "BULLS*IT!" and went on his way. I saw one dealer with a TON of CRAZY CRAZY toned Jefferson proofs but get this: NO AT. All slabbed pcgs or ANACS. The ANACS guy told me that than certainly can happen on nickels from proof sets from the 50's and 60's. He said only on the nickels though. I had never seen such pretty deep purple and blue toning in my life! Very cool. I bought two roman coins for 5 bucks each and a pocket piece 1881 Morgan for 10 bucks. I saw a beautiful 1883 shield nickel NGC ms-65 that I almost bought but I think I am gonna' save up for my 1867 rays ms64. This was my first show where I went as an educated consumer and it made an AMAZING difference. I saw dealers that dealt ONLY in PCI gold label slabs and one that dealt only in SEGS. Several dealt only in raw as well. People had key dates out of slabs and were trying to sell me them left and right, but I’m sorry, i simply CANNOT trust a dealer's raw grade on high level purchases since I don't know how to grade properly. I know ideally I need to eventually learn but until then, I am going to protect myself!!

BTW: Is there ANY (logical) reason a dealer would not want their key dates slabbed aside from the fact that they don't want the grading service to undercut their profits?

Iwog

Most sliders are kept out of slabs for exactly that reason. The dealers hope that uninformed buyers will simply assume that the coins are MS and buy them no questions asked.

RYK

Is there ANY (logical) reason a dealer would not want their key dates slabbed aside from the fact that they don't want the grading service to undercut their profits?

I generally agree with you. In the series that I collect, if a coin is raw or PCI/SEGS I consider it a "problem coin" (or overgraded) until proven otherwise. Not that all coins in slabs are without problems and not that all raw (or SEGS/PCI) coins are problem coins, I try to put the odds in my favor. Sure, I might catch a rip that is raw or second-tier slabbed, but more likely, I will be the one ending up ripped!

Furthermore, I do not make (what I consider) a high dollar purchase from any old dealer at a show. Almost all of my coins come from one or two sources, with rare departures. If you develop a relationship with one or two dealers that specialize in what you collect, you will likely have a steady flow of good coins at fair prices. If your dealer is good (like mine), you will not end up with any junk, either.

I go to coin shows to chat with friends, make new acquaintenances, peruse auction lots (very educational), and check out what is out there. I often make a token (read: low dollar) purchase in a series that is not my specialty to have a souvenir.

I like your conservative approach...you will do fine.

coltgus

The only thing I noticed was NGC slabs were 20 to 1 over PCGS slabs (at least).

louiskeller

The *internet is an awsome tool. But, wen I buy unslabbed, I try to judge the coin to the best of my ability, then I offer a price based on 2-3 grades lower.

If I'm rejected, then no loss. If accepted, then I know, at least, that I have a coin I want that is not overpriced.

So far, I missed only one projection...I bought an $2 1/2 1853-P at $75 from a friend. He 'did not know the grade' and his projection of the coin was AU. PCGS graded the coin at XF-40.

I still am happy with it, and I think I got at least my money's worth!

In my opinion, I like the coin, not necessarily the grade!!!

P.S. ...I'm not a dealer, I'm looking for coins that interest me...Is that so bad?

greghansen

The only thing I noticed was NGC slabs were 20 to 1 over PCGS slabs (at least).

The fact that many of these dealers are so close to the Tampa area (or from there) probably helps explain some of the preponderance of NGC slabs. I arrived a little late so only had about 3 hours to 'scout the floor' and prepare my plan of attack for tomorrow. Today, I limited myself to trying to look at every 1921 Peace Dollar and all Trade Dollars. Lots of 1921 Peace Dollars, all but a handful with pretty serious problems. Best one I saw was a nice white NGC MS64. Very, very limited Trade Dollar selection. Didn't take long to exhaust my review of that series. Towards the end, I sat down and just looked through a notebook of Morgans. Found and bought a raw VF25 1880-P that was an unattributed VAM-6 the "Spikes" 8/7 overdate. Bought several mint state 1956-64 Washington Quarters with the Type B Reverse. For some reason I found 5 of those without really looking too hard. Also picked up a couple of low grade 2-Feather Buffalo Nickels. Tomorrow, I'll look go into full 'variety search' mode and see if I can find anything more exciting. Randy Campbell is here from ANACS doing the complementary grading reviews. I have a handful of coins I hope to get him to look at tomorrow, if I can find a time he isn't swamped.

Kriek

I did not make it today, perhaps tomorrow.


<< <i>... pocket piece 1881 Morgan for 10 bucks ... >>


My last pocket piece Morgan was a freebie.

Russ

<< <i>I saw one dealer with a TON of CRAZY CRAZY toned Jefferson proofs but get this: NO AT. All slabbed pcgs or ANACS. The ANACS guy told me that than certainly can happen on nickels from proof sets from the 50's and 60's. He said only on the nickels though. I had never seen such pretty deep purple and blue toning in my life! >>



Most likely from The Marty Hoard.

Russ, NCNE

TheLiberator

<< <i>

<< <i>I saw one dealer with a TON of CRAZY CRAZY toned Jefferson proofs but get this: NO AT. All slabbed pcgs or ANACS. The ANACS guy told me that than certainly can happen on nickels from proof sets from the 50's and 60's. He said only on the nickels though. I had never seen such pretty deep purple and blue toning in my life! >>



Most likely from The Marty Hoard.

Russ, NCNE >>



Honestly, I had never seen anything like these coins. They were really amazing....but 300 bucks for a purple 1961 proof? I don't think so...not for me. Even though it was REALLY pretty.

Stuart

<< <i>Bought several mint state 1956-64 Washington Quarters with the Type B Reverse. >>


Greg: What's a type "B" reverse on a Washington Quarter?? That's a new one for me.

JrGMan2004

I wish I could go, but I can't make it til Sunday, it'll be dead, and the few dealers left will probally be stripped clean of good stuff... besides... I'm broke...

greghansen

What's a type "B" reverse on a Washington Quarter?? That's a new one for me.

Stuart, Dont feel bad. Other than myself, I think maybe 3 other people collect these things. Seriously, though, they havn't exactly captured the collecting public attention. I don't have a side by side photo showing the difference but basically the Type B Reverse is the 'proof reverse' that was used on a small percentage of Philadelphia Mint business strikes from 1956-1964 due to a shortage of business strike reverse dies. Here is a link to a brief description of the Type B reverse:

Illustration and description of Type B Washington Quarter Reverse

If you keep your back issues of the CDN Monthly Supplement Newsletter, in the Feb. 14, 2003 issue Dr. Richard S. Appel authored an article about the Washington Quarters Type B Reverse. I've also seen pieces by Bill Fivaz on these coins from time to time. I think he gave them a mention in his Nov. 2002 article called "15 Pickable Varieties" that appeared as the headline article in the CDN Monthly Supplement Newsletter dated Nov. 6, 2002. Sorry I don't have side by side photo's to share.

Merc

I also went to the Orlando show Saturday. I was busy doing some volunteer work for my coin club so I only spent about 2 hours looking at coins. Many dealers had the typical low end G-VG raw coins in large folders. It was difficult if you wanted to buy raw coins in nicer grades. One dealer had all raw. The uncirculated brown Lincolns and Indian head cents were ok, but all the red ones had been cleaned. One was a 1915 "matte proof" in PF65 red for just $300. Well the real thing goes for much more. The poor coin had been cleaned an unreal red color. Then it had a wavy orange peal surface, not the tight, fine grain of a matte proof. After the cleaning, it was very hard to tell if it was a proof or not. Another dealer had ok NGC and PCGS graded coins, but also had a case of raw coins. Each raw one was a problem coin! Too bad he was asking full price for them. At another dealer's table, I ran into AT classic comm halves. The certified coins were ok.

TheLiberator, you did fine by asking only for certified coins. Raw coins are very tricky for a new collector. Many are problem coins.

I only bought 1 coin, a 1907 Barber half in VG 10 for $9. The B and E in Liberty are weak but visible. I know it isn't an exciting coin, but even it took some effort to find.

lava

My motto is don't buy raw. In Florida that is even more true, for some reason the sharks head to warmer waters. They can keep their raw rarities, as far as I'm concerned. I know Florida has its good guys and gals too, but it sure seems to have a lot of sharks.

GOLDSAINT

“I told him I only buy slabbed “


Way to go Liberator, stick to your guns, and don’t make the mistake I and others here have made buying raw coins from these guys.
I always get a big laugh in some of these threads when some of our members knock people because they say they are just not educated enough to grade.
Many collectors collect type sets and even in the basic Dansco type set contains 86 coins. In a very basic grading system there are 20 potential grades from Fair to Ms 70. So an “educated” type collector would have to be able to identity 1,720 different grades on all these coins, and this does not take into account very fine points that might throw any coin into a different category, to say nothing of all the potential coin doctoring that may have occurred through time. All collectors both new to the hobby, and ones that have been in for decades should only be buying top slab companies at this point in history.

Conder101

<< <i>I always get a big laugh in some of these threads when some of our members knock people because they say they are just not educated enough to grade. >>


I don't knock such people, but I do think that it should be pointed out that if they can't grade they may still be getting taken because even the top grading services don't always get the grades right either. Yes they pretty accurate, but examples are constantly being posted here on the board with comments about how PCGS, NGC, ANACS etc. "blew this one". Now the better firms do have some guarantees in place to help protect the collector, but it still amazes me when a self confessed grading novice will still drop large sums of money on coins they can't grade and place all of their faith on the number on a slab. If I can't confidently tell the difference between one grade and the MUCH more expensive next higher grade, I'm not going to buy the high grade coin. Buy the best grade you can UNDERSTAND! Not the best you can afford.

TheLiberator

<< <i>

<< <i> Buy the best grade you can UNDERSTAND! Not the best you can afford. >>



That is certainly a good statement. Even though I am not a grader, I always try to see several slabbed examples of a particular grade coin that I am after. That way, I can at least start to see the high vs. low end of the grade. Eye appeal is also something I try to consider because as we all know, eye appeal can often make the difference between a coin you can sell easily if you need to, or one you have to take a big loss on or hold for a long time. For instance, I am looking for a 1928 peace dollar in 64 but after seeing many of them, I think I know the "look" I am after. Do I have to take a leap of faith and trust the grading company on the 64 vs. 63 scale? Yes. But, that is what they are there for. Does that leave me open to some pitfalls where the grading company "blew it?" Yes. Would I buy a raw coin like that with my current grading experience? Not a chance. For instance, one very helpful and knowledgeable dealer at the show showed me a coin that had "light cleaning" described on the ANACS holder and he said even HE had a hard time seeing it after 45 years of looking at coins. Do I eventually hope to be able to grade ms coins more effectively myself? Yes...eventually!!

I do thank the major grading companies for providing a standard that lets people such as myself enjoy the hobby without having to first study every little detail of ms grading on so many denominations that I am interested in. Since I don't collect full series, that helps a lot. Does that make me someone who is "really not a coin collector" because I am not a master grader? I don't think so but maybe there are lots who would disagree.

GOLDSAINT

There are still a few here that think collecting coins should have nothing to do with the monetary value placed on each little round piece of metal. They are entitled to their opinions, but the reality of the hobby is that people’s decisions are based on dollars in, and eventually dollars out, on an equal basis to what type of coin they are buying. So the most important part of the hobby is the condition and grade of each coin purchased. What we also know is that there are in reality NO clear-cut standards for coin grades to be definitive. So most grades are in reality just judgment calls. Many here are dealers, or very long term collectors that spend hundreds of hours each month involved with coins and their grading, and yet when most coins are posted here the grades given by the “experts” are all over the screen. As most here are aware my opinion after getting back in the hobby from a 25 year lay off has change concerning slabs 180 degrees. One thing that is not discussed here much is the fact that most collectors do lots of trading up if they stay in the hobby for some time. My personal experience from this is that if I go to a show to acquire a better coin I can always do a trade for a top 3 slab but nearly can never do one for a raw coin. My “expert” opinion on a raw coin generally varies so much from the other trader that the deal just never gets consummated. This is particularly the case if I am trying to trade raw for slabbed.