Alittle investigation on one of those dealers that gets high grades
Vincecarder
Posts: 1,852 ✭
Well I did break down and buy two cards from one of those dealers that are in question about their grading (ie trimmers). The dealer in question is kkoenig75. I couldn't resist because it was one of my favourite players (Ben Wallace) and the issues are tough to get in high grade due to colored edges.
The two cards I bought are:
PSA 10 1996 97 SKYBOX PREMIEUM STAR RUBY RUBIES BEN WALLACE RC #50035358
PSA 10 1996 97 ULTRA PLATINUM BEN WALLACE RC serial #30679794
Now I do not know the pop reports on either of these cards (if there are a ton of 10's then this study will not be valid) but still I will really examine the cards to see if anything has come into foul play. I do have the platinum Ben Wallace in hand but I'm waiting for the Ruby Ben Wallace. When I do have both I will put up very large scans of both cards so people can judge if there is anything wrong with them. The platinum already has some faults (has chipping on the black edges) as well as some other minor wear. If I was to send the card in for grading I would have pegged it as a PSA 9 with a outside shot at a 10 (you know those ones that you pray get the high grade but wouldn't be disappointed with a 9).
As for some info on the cards....one books at $60 raw (Ben Wallace Platinum - I paid $155.50 for the PSA 10) and the Rubies books at $50 and I paid $129.57 for the PSA 10.
I paid basically over double book on the cards because I'm a huge fan of the player (don't mind if they go down because he is one of my fav's) as well as the cards being difficult to get higher grades. Both have issues with chipping because of colored edges so they are not the easiest cards to get high grades but it is possible. The Wallace platinum does have chipping (will provide scans when I receive the Rubies)
While investigating the serial numbers I found that in the Rubies submission there was a 1996 Skybox Kobe Bryant Rubies RC submitted that was not graded due to (Evidence of Trimming) PSA #30679791. While I kept on running through the serial numbers I kept on seeing the Evidence of Trimming popping up over and over again on a various brands of basketball cards.
1996 SKYBOX PREMIUM RUBIES Kobe Bryant PSA #30679791 (Not Holdered, Evidence of Trimming)
1996 Topps Allen Iverson Draft Redemption PSA # 30679790 (Not Holdered, Evidence of Trimming)
1997 SP AUTHENTIC Tim Duncan PSA # 30679789 (Not Holdered, Evidence of Trimming)
1998 SP AUTHENTIC Peja Stojakovic PSA # 30679787 (Not Holdered, Evidence of Trimming)
2001 ULTIMATE COLL. TYSON CHANDLER PSA # 30679786 (Not Holdered, Evidence of Trimming)
Going through the next 50 cards I saw plenty of modern cards getting high grades (SPX Spectrum RC basketball) as well as a few Not holdered Evidence of trimming cards).
Now the question to PSA is when you start seeing alot of trimmed cards in a submission, should you put up a red flag on the submitter and check out his cards even more? This dealer tends to get cards that have just recently come out( SPX basketball) and flood PSA with all firsts to be graded so it may the first few examples that PSA would grade. Could trimmed cards get through easier? They did catch a few but who's to say that some of the others got better trim jobs (like my Ben Wallace's)
Well for those who are interested in the study I'll keep it updated when I receive my other card. For other (like ranch) please just skip the thread and post somewhere else.
The two cards I bought are:
PSA 10 1996 97 SKYBOX PREMIEUM STAR RUBY RUBIES BEN WALLACE RC #50035358
PSA 10 1996 97 ULTRA PLATINUM BEN WALLACE RC serial #30679794
Now I do not know the pop reports on either of these cards (if there are a ton of 10's then this study will not be valid) but still I will really examine the cards to see if anything has come into foul play. I do have the platinum Ben Wallace in hand but I'm waiting for the Ruby Ben Wallace. When I do have both I will put up very large scans of both cards so people can judge if there is anything wrong with them. The platinum already has some faults (has chipping on the black edges) as well as some other minor wear. If I was to send the card in for grading I would have pegged it as a PSA 9 with a outside shot at a 10 (you know those ones that you pray get the high grade but wouldn't be disappointed with a 9).
As for some info on the cards....one books at $60 raw (Ben Wallace Platinum - I paid $155.50 for the PSA 10) and the Rubies books at $50 and I paid $129.57 for the PSA 10.
I paid basically over double book on the cards because I'm a huge fan of the player (don't mind if they go down because he is one of my fav's) as well as the cards being difficult to get higher grades. Both have issues with chipping because of colored edges so they are not the easiest cards to get high grades but it is possible. The Wallace platinum does have chipping (will provide scans when I receive the Rubies)
While investigating the serial numbers I found that in the Rubies submission there was a 1996 Skybox Kobe Bryant Rubies RC submitted that was not graded due to (Evidence of Trimming) PSA #30679791. While I kept on running through the serial numbers I kept on seeing the Evidence of Trimming popping up over and over again on a various brands of basketball cards.
1996 SKYBOX PREMIUM RUBIES Kobe Bryant PSA #30679791 (Not Holdered, Evidence of Trimming)
1996 Topps Allen Iverson Draft Redemption PSA # 30679790 (Not Holdered, Evidence of Trimming)
1997 SP AUTHENTIC Tim Duncan PSA # 30679789 (Not Holdered, Evidence of Trimming)
1998 SP AUTHENTIC Peja Stojakovic PSA # 30679787 (Not Holdered, Evidence of Trimming)
2001 ULTIMATE COLL. TYSON CHANDLER PSA # 30679786 (Not Holdered, Evidence of Trimming)
Going through the next 50 cards I saw plenty of modern cards getting high grades (SPX Spectrum RC basketball) as well as a few Not holdered Evidence of trimming cards).
Now the question to PSA is when you start seeing alot of trimmed cards in a submission, should you put up a red flag on the submitter and check out his cards even more? This dealer tends to get cards that have just recently come out( SPX basketball) and flood PSA with all firsts to be graded so it may the first few examples that PSA would grade. Could trimmed cards get through easier? They did catch a few but who's to say that some of the others got better trim jobs (like my Ben Wallace's)
Well for those who are interested in the study I'll keep it updated when I receive my other card. For other (like ranch) please just skip the thread and post somewhere else.
CB4
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<< <i>sure, the president of a multi-million dolar company should respond to every hysterical posting! >>
Hey my post isn't hysterical....just trying to show a point. Many other posts have been made about various dealers pulling off scams with BGS and now more are starting to show up with PSA. Just keep track of a few large dealers on Ebay and you can see what's going on. Why would a dealer like unklbnz pull his auctions after the post showing cards that were in lower graded cases being flipped in 2-3 days to Gem Mint cases? I think something is going on and people should be informed about this situation.
<< <i>sure, the president of a multi-million dolar company should respond to every hysterical posting! >>
Just another ostrich. Here's a nice patch of sand for you. Now duck!
Proudly buying your rookie cards since 1987.
Or, you can just keep your head in the sand, as alluded to by jaypers. Your choice.
<< <i>This is not a hysterical post, carew4me. If you read the boards regularly, you would have seen my thread in the last few days regarding the activities of "unklbnz", a known card trimmer and scammer. We basically documented how he goes about his business (on both a BGS card, and a PSA card), and he immediately pulled his auctions after he was probably tipped off (or reading here). Add to that the information shared here about people like kkoenig, shoelessjoejackson, et al, and what you have is a potential bombshell for the grading industry. If I were running the best grading company in existence (which PSA clearly is), I might want to allieviate some of my customer's concerns about this issue. If not, it is only going to get worse, and might just pull the plug on the added value that grading cards brings. If you can just trim cards and get PSA 10's all of the time, what value does a PSA 10 retain?
Or, you can just keep your head in the sand, as alluded to by jaypers. Your choice. >>
my point exactly.. its not just THIS post.. its an accumulation of several things I've read over the last few days.. it aggravates me, and I think Joe Orlando, or AT LEAST a PSA Representative make some kind of statement..
If I was a modern card collector, I would not even bother getting them graded. I would keep them in top loaders.
Look- Just because a guy is submitting trimmed cards doesn't mean that's ALL he's submitting. It's possible-- even likely-- that one of these clowns is buying a ton of raw stuff off ebay (you can get very nice modern cards raw on the 'bay, BTW, it's not like vintage where the raw stuff tends to be over graded junk), trimming the rough stuff and submitting the clean stuff as is. The main point to remember here is that very nice raw modern is easily attainable; if you do a search of a heavily traded card (Topps Chrome Lebron springs to mind), you'll see a ton of guys with 50 or less feedback selling these. Most of these sellers are collectors who broke a box, don't have a PSA membership but still want to sell; since they can get roughly the same price for a raw card as they can a nine, they aren't really penalized by selling raw. As a result, the savvy buyer can do a search, bid only on those cards being sold by small-time ebayers, and often pick up some real gems that will fetch 4-10x the original purchase price once the card is slabbed.
Vintage collectors get freaked out--and rightfully so-- at the sight of beautiful raw cards on the 'net, because it's usually a scam. But the same isn't true for modern, due largely to better card maintenance by the original buyer and better quality control at the press. If a modern dealer WASN'T getting a fair number of high-end raw cards to submit you'd have to wonder what he was doing with his time. This stuff is everywhere.
I was at a card shop in LI and saw a young collector - maybe 10 - buy a new pack, open it, and insert every card into a toploader. That is the reason new stuff doesn't need to be graded. A PSA 8, 9 or 10 is all the same to me.
That is why I buy vintage PSA 3-7
<< <i>what is PSA supposed to do about it? stop accepting their money? >>
Why not? If it is proven that time and time again the same people are cheating the system, show some integrity and stop accepting their submissions. If a guy shoplifts from a store time and time again, the store will eventually ban him.
<< <i>Look- Just because a guy is submitting trimmed cards doesn't mean that's ALL he's submitting. >>
What? I am surprised at this statement, since it sounds like you think it's no big deal to submit trimmed cards in the first place. I wouldn't waste my breath defending these well known (and caught in the act) card trimmers. If they do it even a few times, that's fraudulent enough for me.