Stricter on Frankie FBL PCGS or NGC?

raycyca

Which service is stricter on grading FBL on Frankies, PCGS or NGC? IE, if a coin is graded by service XYZ it WILL cross over to the over service's holder 90% of the time. Thanks in advance! Ray

RegistryCoin

Not that I used both services, ie ngc, extensively, I hear that they adhere to a tighter rule concerning the fbl, than does pcgs.
ps. as far as crossing, that's a flip if the coin.

LucyBop

In my experience NGC seems to be 1 point higher then PCGs....

NGC does require all the Bell Lines to be defined, but I have made the case and shown many pics of NGC FBL Frankies that may not even be FBL at PCGs...

PCGs can often be found with all 7 lines defined, I have owned and handled many examples beyond count already...
Typically if the bottom lines are there and the coin truely is well struck, the top lines will also be there...

But I also know for a fact that both comanies can be lenient in certian years for Bell Lines... and very tough in others...


in Proofs I also seem to find that a NCG pr68 tends to become a PCGs pr67.......

NGC likes lots of frost, PCGs likes deep mirrors with frost...

I like both companys, and I have had NGC frankies upgrade with PCGs, but for the most part, again in my experience, they tend to be a point looser then PCGs...

I say buy em both!!! A toner looks real nice in the NGC white holder....

raycyca

Thanks Lucy. I'm looking forward to getting that 1956 PCGS 66 FBL soon. It's only my second slabbed Frankie. I bought it as an example of a 66 FBL. My other is a 63 PCGS 64 FBL. I don't know about rating the FBL's so I need examples. I think I have some in that set I bought about 8 months ago and want to see what I should submit. Ray

foodude

My experience with the FBL designation for PCGS and NGC is similar to Lucy's. On grading, I see NGC being about a half point looser. I've crossed several NGCs to PCGS at the same grade, and a few early NGCs at the next higher grade.

Typetone

PCGS just requires the bottom bell lines to be full, without significant bag marks, and almost all the way to the crack. NGC seems to require both sets to be full. I often wondered what would happen if you bought a bunch of NGC 53S non-FBL coins. It is at least possible that you might find one that qualifies under the looser PCGS standards. I sure they have been well searched by now though.

Greg

foodude

I often wondered what would happen if you bought a bunch of NGC 53S non-FBL coins. It is at least possible that you might find one that qualifies under the looser PCGS standards. I sure they have been well searched by now though.

I keep my eye out for them. I wonder if my chances are better with the lottery

RegistryCoin

Except for the attitude pcgs has about crossing ngc's, it would be a great plan, and probably has been tried many times. You probably have seen that there is an emotional interest between co.s beyond the proper grade... In other words, in all probability, it isn't worth the trouble, even if the coin is an ngc, outstanding for the grade.

RR

Which service is stricter on grading FBL on Frankies, PCGS or NGC?

NGC.

Also, listen to LucyBop.

RR

michael

Which service is stricter on grading FBL on Frankies, PCGS or NGC?

NGC.

Also, listen to LucyBop.

RR


as per the above


michael

bushmaster8

Take a look at the pop.reports for PCGS FBL's vs. NGC FBL's. Nothing more need be said.

MadMonk

I feel that loose, haphazard, standards on FBL have a very detrimental effect on the series.

RegistryCoin

Agreed as to the downfall of the series, and the new-ish popularity of the non-fbl set. They did it to themselves with inconsistancy and, like MM said, varying standards.

MadMonk

I have no problem with a non-FBL set, as it encourages people to complete sets of franklins, i.e., to participate. I'm hoping that it will revive the soft Franklin Market. When dealers are selling FBL coins that are subject to debate, then you have a big problem. So, if we went to a fairly easy to follow, yet non vague FBL standard, the values for FBL would go up in cases where a FBL is more rare. The collectors would have to think hard before spending bigger bucks on FBL coins, and many would opt to collect Non FBL coins.

bushmaster8

<< <i>PCGS just requires the bottom bell lines to be full, without significant bag marks, and almost all the way to the crack. >>


Lately, it seems they are reluctant to give the FBL designation to a coin with any marks on the lower bell lines. It used to be, they would still give the designation to a coin if the mark across the lines was insignificant. Now, it gets rejected even for a micro-mark.

MadMonk

<< <i>

<< <i>PCGS just requires the bottom bell lines to be full, without significant bag marks, and almost all the way to the crack. >>


Lately, it seems they are reluctant to give the FBL designation to a coin with any marks on the lower bell lines. It used to be, they would still give the designation to a coin if the mark across the lines was insignificant. Now, it gets rejected even for a micro-mark. >>



Did PCGS hire some ex-NGC graders?!?!

raycyca

Thanks for the input. I guess now I know where to shop for my Frankies in the future. Ray

LucyBop

<< <i>PCGS just requires the bottom bell lines to be full, without significant bag marks, and almost all the way to the crack. NGC seems to require both sets to be full. I often wondered what would happen if you bought a bunch of NGC 53S non-FBL coins. It is at least possible that you might find one that qualifies under the looser PCGS standards. I sure they have been well searched by now though. >>



the few PCGs 53s FBL coins that I have seen and owned have all 7 lines.

LucyBop

<< <i>Take a look at the pop.reports for PCGS FBL's vs. NGC FBL's. Nothing more need be said. >>



Here is a recent FBL graded NGC coin:








I like NGC, and I will say that some of my recent sales, NGC Frankies have been strong..
But this one has no buisness in a FBL holder, and this isn't the only NGC Frankie like this that I have owned or come across...

I threw this coin up on the NGC boards asking if it was a FBL.... The responses were maybe PCGs would but NGC wouldn't....
that type of response was kinda repeated. Then when I revealed the NGC holder, there wasn't much more posting to that thread...

The point is, even with NGC's stricter requirements, they'll FBL coins that PCGs may not FBL..... So the same old story applies, look at the coin closely......

I will repeat that typically (and granted this isn't always the case and I could supply images to show it isnt) if a FBL Frankie is truely well struck, all seven lines will be there, and many PCGs Frankies have all 7 lines defined.

The intent of this post is to share what my experiences have been, and it isnt in anyway mean't to demean NGC, I do like them and every Frankie collector should pay attention to their coins..... Because I'll tell you, though I find them to be a point looser in many cases, some wonderful upgrades can be had, or simply left alone in the NGC holder....

But I am noticing in the past few months, NGC Frankies are selling strong and in some of my cases, sold for more then their PCGs counterparts. The days of finding bargians in NGC holders are diminishing....

bushmaster8

Geez!....I don't know Lucy. The mere thought of a purty, young thing like you wandering around alone near the wharfs of the Ng Sea... Sounds really spooky, maybe you should have Bear or someone with you when you go across the street next time. Please be careful!

BTW- without going across the street to check for myself, I am guessing that that is a 1953-P you have posted pix of?

flykite

Franklins are dead, and they are never coming back; if you can't appreciate in value in the broadest-based coin market in decades, then R.I.P. Comparative grading is what killed this series; a coin is either well-struck, or it isn't, plain and simple! Saying a '56P is a 66 because it has great mint-set tone insults all the early year coins sitting in 65 holders. I have seen so few 1956-1959 coins that can hold a candle to, say, a 1949...it's a joke.

NGC is much tougher!

MadMonk

I'd have to agree that the grading companies, and thier inconsistencies, have contributed to the soft Franklin Market. I'm not to disheartened, mainly because I bought the coin, and not the plastic.

wondercoin

"Franklins are dead"

Yes, something I have pointed out here on the boards as well for a long time. Except that the pop 1 or 2 coins have been strong throughout the past couple years, even in the decline. And, to the COLLECTOR, is this a very bad thing? I have been able to add coins to my personal collections over the past year or so at levels far better than what I could have expected to pay a couple years ago. On the other hand, I consigned a Franklin recently that I agreed to let go at roughly 1/2 what I would have received for the coin a couple years ago. But, I figured many upgrades to my set could also be had now at roughly 1/2 what they would have cost a couple years ago, so it is a "wash" and an opportunity to improve the collection, the way I see it.

Wondercoin

bushmaster8

Actually, MS64 FBL Franklins are doing surprisingly well lately. This makes little sense to me as they are exceedingly common (with a few exceptions). Dates like 52-D, 53-D commonly bring $30-$40 for nice 64fbl's and they are among the easiest!
Go figure!

MadMonk

<< <i>"Franklins are dead"

Yes, something I have pointed out here on the boards as well for a long time. Except that the pop 1 or 2 coins have been strong throughout the past couple years, even in the decline. And, to the COLLECTOR, is this a very bad thing? I have been able to add coins to my personal collections over the past year or so at levels far better than what I could have expected to pay a couple years ago. On the other hand, I consigned a Franklin recently that I agreed to let go at roughly 1/2 what I would have received for the coin a couple years ago. But, I figured many upgrades to my set could also be had now at roughly 1/2 what they would have cost a couple years ago, so it is a "wash" and an opportunity to improve the collection, the way I see it.

Wondercoin >>



Good Logic.

LucyBop

<< <i>Franklins are dead, and they are never coming back; if you can't appreciate in value in the broadest-based coin market in decades, then R.I.P. Comparative grading is what killed this series; a coin is either well-struck, or it isn't, plain and simple! Saying a '56P is a 66 because it has great mint-set tone insults all the early year coins sitting in 65 holders. I have seen so few 1956-1959 coins that can hold a candle to, say, a 1949...it's a joke.

NGC is much tougher! >>



I couldn't disagree any stronger here...

I am seeing strong prices on my pieces.... and I have been for months, a very pleasant trend... But bargains still abound, the Author of this thread got a very nice 56 PCGs ms66fbl at a awesome price from me.... One coin that I recently sold was a 52s PCGs ms64fbl, the bidding brought this one upto $386 vs PCGs guide of $275. A similar thing Happened with MadMartys 51s ms64fbl, which then caused me to list several 51s pcgs ms64fbls, needless to say these coins blew away the PCGs guide... Now granted I am mentioning some very tough years in FBL here, but I have seen strength in my sales all across the board... For mint states, Proofs still seem weak, which I may test alittle more here as PCGs just gave my 53 Frankie a pr67cam..........

I really like NGC, but I've seen far to many that would drop a grade with PCGs.... even with the FBL designation, NGC does miss the boat... Just as PCGs does.... But both companys are quality and recommended by me..... I don't really get into ANACS Frankies and have seen very few...... I do like ANACs for winged libertys.... ...

the statement franklins are dead and they are never coming back is incorrect in my opinion.....
when PCGs announced the non-fbl registry almost all of my ms65 ms66 coins sold for strong prices, I remember sharing that with the Pug and I believe Fudude....

Many of the buyers I have been dealing with are new customers.........

raycyca

I bought that 56 Frankie as an example of a 66 FBL coin as a grading specimen. I never believed I could get one priced so low. I already have a 1963 MS 64 FBL from PCGS. I bought a complete raw set of Frankies for $250 about 8 months ago not knowing anything about the series-Kennedys are my focus. Since then, I've acquired a few nice pieces from dealers to upgrade those in my set. I have a few with very nice blue/orange/green toning. Now that I've seen what a FBL should look like, I have about 5-7 that would make FBl in my set from either company. I also bought a VERY nice bright white 1950-D that should grade MS65 from what I've seen(it's much better than my 64 and at least as nice as any 65 photo I've seen). And YES, it has FBL. I bought it from an antique dealer for about $4 raw. Now I'm going to send it out to get graded as soon as I get a couple more to make it worth my while. I'll never have a top ranking set but at least I can have a complete set that's nice looking to my eyes. If the prices drop, all the better to buy the ones I need cheaper. It's from people like here on the boards that I have found a new place to wander while waiting for Kennedys to pop up that I need. Besides, someday I may be fat, bald and ugly too! I love chalenges and I guess finding those FBL coins will make for happy hunting. Thanks everyone for all your input.

flykite

Lucybop:

The coins you sight are some of the more scarce ones, and I'm sure the '52-S was a looker to go for that price. I just sold a bunch on Ebay this past weekend and, on it's 3rd time around, I FINALLY sold a pure-white 55
to RT for $200....that's giving it away! Except for a handfull of fanatics (me), from an aesthetic point of view, Ben is one of the ugliest regular issues of the 20th century, so the prospects of expanding it's collector base are remote! Unless and until the CDNL starts quoting FBL prices, it's going to always be an uphill battle.

LucyBop

again, I have seen strength across the board, my common 52d's in a ms64fbl have been selling fast and strong as well as many other ms64fbls that I have sold in the last few months...

Ben maybe ugly to you, but again I'll disagree.



<< <i>so the prospects of expanding it's collector base are remote! >>



Many of my new customers whom have given me want lists would probably beg to differ....

LucyBop

<< <i>I FINALLY sold a pure-white 55
to RT for $200....that's giving it away! >>



You don't want to hear what i recently got for a blast white PCGs ms65fbl 55....

Maybe your images or your auction layout or your shipping charges discourages bidders....