Bust Half Grading Class

cosmicdebris

OK all you experts and novices of bust half grading this is it, time to educate us. After purchasing my first bust half I have been pouring through the PCGS and ANA grading books. Seems I have found one of the most difficult series to grade. So many factors to take into account.

So I figure let's have everyone grade this coin and explain their grade. This should be very educational.

kieferscoins

XF-45.

Not enough luster and too much rub in the fields to give it AU-50 or higher.

Cameron Kiefer

FC57Coins

First and foremost - YOU SUCK! That's a very pretty coin and a very talented picture of the coin. OK now that this is out of the way... Bust halves were the largest denomination coins of their time, and were used by banks for transactions, so most of them got jostled around in big bags and were counted and re-counted. As such, as I believe is the case with yours, you can find excellent examples of these coins with just the slightest bit of wear in the high points of the coin. On the obverse I see just the slightest wear on the cap and on the hair by Liberty's ear. On the reverse I see the slightest hint of wear on the head of the eagle and on the tops of the wings. Also there's minute chatter on Liberty's face, this would have to be looked at closer because it could be due to a weak strike, and also a few hairlines in the field in front of Liberty.

Overall I'd give this bad girl an AU55/58 kinda grade - but then again, what the hell do I know

astrorat

Bust halves are not too difficult once you spend time with them. What makes them a bit of a challenge is that until mid-1836 they were produced on screw presses without collars and the uniformity of strike is less than after the steam press with a collar.

Additionally, many bust halves have been cleaned ages ago (which was the fashionable thing to do) which adds hairlines and often disrupts the surface.

Now regarding your coin (based on photos only):

First, it is a nice coin. The variety is an O-103 which is an R-1 (common). The coin appears to have been cleaned in the past and is retoning, but underlying hairlines are present. The coin has a nice strike and full rims.

Grading of this piece is interesting as it will grade differently depending on the market to whom the piece is being offered. If for general collectors, it will be sold as an AU-50. If for bust half collectors, it will be an EF-45, but should be priced as an EF-40 due to the old cleaning. The reason for the EF grade as opposed to the AU grade is particularly noted on the reverse. There is too much wear consistently across the devices as opposed to the wear being isolated to smaller areas (look at the eagle's wings). On the obverse, the wear is more difficult to detect from a photo, but you can see consistent wear throughout the hair.

All that said, again, you have a nice coin.

Lane

Placid

55

charley

The monolithic brightness(if it indeed is the same in person as the picture)suggests harsh cleaning to me.

RotatedRainbows

That piece has no doubt been cleaned and retoned from residing in an old album, it has clear wear on the eagles feathers and probably little luster left (only around devices) at best it would go CH.XF. Unfortunately Bust Halves are a series where the person actually has to learn about the coins and their method of manufacture to be able to accurately grade them. Just looking at a few slabbed pieces will not begin to help someone learn how to grade them especially since the major services do such a poor job themselves at grading them. To really learn how to grade busties you will have to read the books which specialize in bust halves (Overton of course) , you should also try and talk to as many bust half specialist as you can. I was lucky when I started to collect them as I only lived about an hour away from the president of JRCS (who is also a member of the Bust Half Nut Club) and he came to my house before and I have visited him at his house so I was able to learn a lot about how to determine the grade using all the different factors involved including detail,luster,die state,strike, year and variety. It is definitely a long learning process that does not happen over night.

cosmicdebris

Interesting opinions so far and so much that has been said is so true. I spent a little while at Heritage this morning looking at what they had to offer as far as 1820 to 1836 bust halves and the grades are all over the place. Most coins they have to offer are NGC and ANACS in the XF40 to AU58 range. From what I have seen there grading these coins is very subjective and inconsistant.

From what I have seen and read so far and plus having the coin in hand I would go AU50/53. This coin has great eye appeal ( my images still do not capture the coin exactly ) which will give this coin a bump or two with today's market grading.

EVillageProwler

Bill,

Since your objective is to learn how to grade CBH's in general, I highly recommend what Cammie, Lane and RR wrote.

Irrespective of this coin in particular, you need to look for telltale signs of cleaning -- which this coin seems to have based on the image. You need always to remind yourself that it's a balancing act determining what is wear and what is weakness of strike, but that is NOT a difficult issue if you look at the entire coin. In particular, note the degree of central detail vs the degree of star/peripheral detail. That's another indicator that many use to decide between wear and strike. While we're on the subject of wear, let's not forget Cammie's warning to look out for field wear.

Finally, amongst the general collecting community, it is the BHNC membership who tend to pay the most for CBH's. But, they value one of the four ingredients to a coin's grade far above the other three. That ingredient is LUSTER. A CBH with copious original mint luster and a little bit of rub may technically grade out as AU58 or AU55, but can easily command MS62 or better money. That is because the BHNC membership value their AU62+ grade over the technical AU58 grade.

From the image, I would be very leery of this coin without an in-hand opportunity to view this coin. And, I wouldn't care if it were slabbed by PCGS! Based solely on the image, I think I see plenty of fleid wear as well as evidence of cleaning. I may also see some loss of detail due to wear, but I am not certain and need to tilt the coin a bit and check out the stars more carefully. Finally, I see little in the way of luster.

The 1830 as a date is one where you can easily find an AU62 specimen and expect to pay in the neighborhood of $500 and up, depending on how nice it is.

EVP

Baley

I think there will come a day when "cleaning", especially of early coins, will not regarded as a "kiss of death" as much as it will be viewed as just another source of wear which must be accounted for in a grade. It seems lots and lots of collectors are conditioned to reject any coin with any signs of ever being "warshed off" as if that makes it worthless, which I think is just ridiculous, considering that up until about 40 years ago, cleaning silver coins was very very common and accepted.

OK, that said, this coin appears to have been lightly to moderately cleaned at some point in the distant past and has since retoned in a very attractive manner. The strike is about average for the date/variety, maybe just a little better than average. there are about 10 points of wear on the coin, and about 5 points worth of cleaning, in my opinion, making it a 45 in my book. There is no damage to the rims, fields or devices, just a few circulation tics commensurate with an EF/AU coin. However, the nice toning and overall positive eye appeal bumps the market grade up to about 50 (well, maybe 48), and I don't think you'll have a problem selling it for between 45 and 50 money when the time comes.

In short, I think the seller of a coin like this is giving it away if he accepts an EF40 price and expecting too much if he's asking AU53 money, so depending on the buyer and seller, the best I can determine the grade is that it's between 45 and 50 and I'm liking the EF48 grade more and more for this coin.

ealandg

I would like to echo what EVP said about weakness of strike vs. wear. Sometimes with these early coins it is EXTREMELY difficult to tell. I don't hold an old cleaning against a bust coin as long as it has retoned nicely and it wasn't too harsh. I give it an AU50.

I like it.

EVillageProwler

On the subject of cleaning vis-v-vis silver Bust coinage, I agree that it should not be viewed as the kiss of death. Rather, it is yet another component in the assignment of grade and value. Cleaning gets to me when I feel it has impaired the original mint luster sufficiently (relative to the details grade) to give it a "weird" sheen or a glossy look.

Given that this is a relatively high grade circ, I would consider the lack of original mint luster to be most grievious, especially when I know exactly how it ought to look. If the coin were in the VF or lower grade range, I would not care that it didn't have any original mint luster. In fact, I would expect it not to have any. Likewise, the presence of some glossiness or hairlines at the VF level can also be acceptable. (I'm speaking in generalities here.)

Essentially, what we have here is a question much more easily asked than answered. But, in a nutshell, if the coin simply looks too "off" from its more natural appearance, then you gotta heavily account for that.

As a counterpoint to this coin, let's look at the 1797 $1, "10x6 stars" or even the "9x7 stars Small Letters" varieties. It is important to understand the context in which these coins were made. The pestilence that forced the closing of the Mint, the improperly stored dies, etc., all conspired to produce lousy specimens of the above two varieties. They tend to be poorly struck, have "crusty" planchets, and seriously impaired luster. So, one must be realistic when assessing value for these coins. When you find one that is head and shoulders above the "normal" specimen, then you gotta also throw away the price guides.

The Carter specimen of the 1797 9x7 SmLtrs specimen surfaced not too long ago in a very old NGC entombment. It crossed first shot to PCGS at the same grade (AU55). I believe the price at which it sold in auction was in the neighborhood of $50K -- and that was a couple of years ago. Throw away the sheets, folks, for that coin was a beauty. It was pristinely struck and had luster to die for. It also had "WOW!" eye appeal due to the custom-made holders that Amon Carter used.

But, this coin also had hairlines due to an ancient wiping. Clearly, no one cared about that. Why? Because one must be realistic and recognize that it is the 2nd finest known of that variety.

EVP

Dabigkahuna

Bill,

Nice Bust. Looks AU55+ from here.

You're not going to put it in a "plastic casket" are you?


Larry
Dabigkahuna

cosmicdebris

Just got back from local dealer he gave it a and an AU55/58 grade

Just wanted to add that no matter what the grade is, buyer and seller are happy with this coin

astrorat

<< <i>Just got back from local dealer he gave it a and an AU55/58 grade

Just wanted to add that no matter what the grade is, buyer and seller are happy with this coin >>



Wow, I gotta sell some of my bust halves to that dealer!

But your last sentence is really all that matters, if everyone is happy, then it does not matter what anybody else thinks. Enjoy the coin!

Lane

RotatedRainbows

Just wanted to add that no matter what the grade is, buyer and seller are happy with this coin

That is one of the best things about collecting busties, you can have a great coin with awesome eye appeal at a good price and it does not have to be perfect (or in a slab). A true collector coin!!!

greghansen

Holy cow, Cameron! Your tough on that coin. EF45? It is easily, I say again, EASILY an AU coin. I'm thinking 58ish. Eye appeal is killer. I would pay Mint State money for that in a heartbeat. It's a coin where I wouldn't object to seeing it market graded in an MS61/62 slab. Softness of strike on right periferal stars is about the worst thing I can say about it.

cosmicdebris

Now if only I could find the same thing in 1800-1806 drapped bust half for the same price.

Baley

for the same price

puff

<< <i>Now if only I could find the same thing in 1800-1806 drapped bust half for the same price. >>



Bill Since I'm the one that sold you this 1830 bust half that I bought as an AU 58 from a dealer, that has been collecting and dealing in coins for more than 40 years, and if you could buy an 1800 - 1806 from a dealer for anything that even resembles what you paid for this coin I want you to point me in the direction of that dealer just in case he has some walkers for sale!

cosmicdebris

Will do puff

Here's another shot at a different angle plus a link to an 2.2 meg mpeg of the coin in motion.

2.2 meg mpeg

astrorat

Thanks Bill for the video. Assuming that the light is from an incandescent bulb and the colors are correct . . . it really helped answer some questions about the surfaces. Unfortunately, I will still have to stick with a cleaned coin that is retoning. The "luster" is a result of cleaning and not an original surface. The video makes it obvious. If this were a rare variety, it might bring "AU money", but since it is an R-1, it would sell for less. Although the person from who you purchased it inferred that it was an AU-58 (this is the grade at which they purchased it), in my opinion, that is quite a stretch. An AU-58 has a whisper of a rub, not flat surfaces on the devices. For example, the eagle's feathers which are relatively "high relief" as compared with modern coins, are flat at their tops. This is not from "cabinet friction", but good ol' fashioned wear. Still a nice coin, just not an AU . . . again, just my opinion.

Lane

stman

Having seen the little video, it doesn't appear to have mint luster but rather just light reflection. Yes I know light reflection helps show luster but hopefully you know what I mean.

nwcs

I guess this is my contribution to the thread. It's an NGC AU-55.

RotatedRainbows

This is the type of luster you need to see on a bustie to really achieve a grade in the CH.AU range although this piece is a little softly struck so the luster has a little more of a thick grainy look to it. This scan is not the best but as you can see it has strong luster thru the fields with the only weakness being below Liberty's chin because the die is starting to split in two. The piece has obviously been dipped but it was not enough to damage the luster so it has a very strong cartwheel (thick frosty luster) when rotated in the light. It is accurately graded CH.AU 55 by anacs.

Bustman

au50/53. Possible cleaning.

Merc

I also collect bust halves and even won one at the FUN show in 2003. This one is nice looking but I've very certain it has been dipped at some point in it's life and has retoned. It has Au55 wear but I'm not sure how PCGS would grade it due to the retoning. I have seen some retoned ones in slabs. It looks nice, but those colors do not look origional like you would find on 174 year old circulated silver.

Please no more blast white AU bust halves. I've seen them in PCGS, NGC, and ANACS holders but I wouldn't buy one like that. Lightly circulated silver that has been exposed to air for 170 + years is just not bright white. To me, this is the same as seeing a G4 bust half that is bright white. It is a cleaned coin.

dorkkarl

the coin grades vf-35 for me. why? it has xf+ detail, but is lightly corroded, has been cleaned & given artificially rainbow toning. taking all the negative aspects into account, i would pay 90 bucks for it if i needed that die marriage. when i look up in trends what 90 bucks corresponds to in grade, it breaks down to basically near xf. hence i'd call it xf minus, which is vf-35.

K S

dorkkarl

oh 1 more thing, if it were my coin i'd dipp the artificial chemical colors off of it & let it retone naturaly in a paper envelope.

K S

MacCoin

she got some ware in the hair but I love it. it looks much nicer than my 1833 and thats a xf45

Gilbert

Looks a lot nicer at 2.2meg. Little as I know, I would have called it AU50 and would go AU53 after seeing the bigger picture.

It seems to me a great many in this series have been wiped or cleaned. It appears the TPGs have taken this into account (market grading) and hence the AU58 by your dealer and NGC55 on the other coin pictured.

This isn't my series (if that ain't apparent) so as far as attribution and the peculiarities of those struck in 1830, I will defer to those who appear to have a better grasp, and are willing to espouse it with such authority.

Anyways, I like the way it looks.

BigGreek

I see an EF-45 or AU-50 coin there. What I look for is separation on the stars,
a good clasp, some detail on the forehead locks and light wear on the
feathers. The middle arrowhead detail is mostly there too. Detail on the
other two arrow heads would bump the coin to 55 or higher.

BigGreek

Just saw the second picture and the mpag. I'm starting to like
the coin more. I'd say a solid 55.

bushmaster8

Damn... I thought this was a clankeye story!