eBay buyer request refund...REFUND DENIED !!

Crazy4Coins

Here is a Link to ebay auctionon some coins I sold in January.

Here it is today April 8th, and I get this email from the buyer:

Hi, I sent one message without a response. I received 2 circulated dollars in this roll (I had them graded by ANACS) and would like a refund on those. You could also substitute a couple MS63 coins instead. Please let me know what you can do. Thanks.

I responded with this:

Hello,
I did not previously receive any emails from you regarding these coins.I reply to all emails twice daily.I gladly offer refunds on all my auctions,as long as the item(s) are returned to me within 10 days.I would have refunded your purchase for the entire roll only,not selected coins.This auction ended almost 90 days ago. The feedback "Very Nice!Thanks!" you left for me indicated you were happy with the item.This is the first request I have ever received on any of my auctions.I try to be as accurate as possible in all my listings and never attempt to deceive anyone.I think that I am being reasonable in this matter. I am curious however as to your grading results from ANACS on the coins.It would help me in future auctions as I am not a coin dealer and wish to be as accurate as possible.
Thank You,

Buyer response to my email:

It took me a long time to figure this out because I submitted the coins to ANACS for grading, which right now takes approximately forever. I am not an expert grader, so I left feedback based on my opinion of the coins, which turned out to be mostly correct. I only submitted what I thought were the best 15 out of the 20, and I got:

MS64-5

MS63-5

MS62-2

MS60-1

AU55-2

I do not doubt that you are an honest seller. However, I placed a bid on 20 uncirculated coins, averaging MS63. What I received was 13 uncirculated coins averaging approximately MS63, 2 circulated coins, and 5 coins which have yet to be graded (I should be getting those back next month).
When all is said and done, I received at least 2 circulated coins, and the average grade of all 20 coins will be well below MS63. Therefore, the coins were not represented accurately, even though it wasn't done on purpose. I would appreciate compensation for the difference in value between 2 AU55 coins and 2 MS63 coins, which is $9 per coin according to Coin Values Online (formerly Trends). I welcome any other suggestions.

So what would you do?

I want to be fair and to do the right thing.

Edited to add:

Hope you don't mind, I borrowed a couple lines from some replies. It made it a little quicker and sounded better than telling him to pound sand or go pee in the corner of a round room.


Here is my reply to the buyer ....


Hello Benjamin,
After considering your request, I don't think I have any reasonable obligation to refund any money.I feel that I graded the coins as fairly as I could, The 2 AU do not make " the average grade of all 20 coins below MS63."

In actuality,based on the grades you received from ANACS,there are three measures of central tendancy: Mean, median and mode.

The mean (which is the sum of the grades divided by the number of coins) is 61.9

The median (the point in which half are above and half are below) is 63

The mode (the most frequently occurring ) is 63 and 64

The "average" can be defined as any one of those three.

It is safe to say that the "average" grade is MS63, which is as was adverstied.The coins were sold as a lot and I would have been willing to issue a refund for the entire lot, but not on individual coins if the request were to have been made upon your receipt of the coins.

Randy


Hopefully he will go away now.....

IrishMike

Tell him nicely to go get a life.

Russ

Tell him nicely to pound sand.

Russ, NCNE

Goldfinger

Ditto.

Your description was perfectly reasonable and accurate. That doesn't mean that anyone who buys raw coins that don't quite grade as well as the buyer hopes is entitled to a refund.

-Jay

Neptune

tell him that your auction stated: average grade of ms-63 - not that ALL of them would be ms-63, and that's that, and that all returns/exchanges must be done within 10 days.

MSD61

NO REFUND! The auction ended 90 days ago, you stated when you accepted returns and that is that...done...finé!! Tell him welcome to the world of coin grading

Tsimmerdown

Well, he proved himself that your auction is true. Average grade of MS63.

5 Graded better than MS 63.
5 Graded below a MS 63.
5 Graded at MS 63.

That averages out!

I think you did the right thing and the fair thing. Refund after 10 days means a refund after 10 days. If he was going to submit them for grading, then he should have notified you before he won the item. This way you could have reminded him that if grading took longer than 10 days, he could no longer return them.

bushmaster8

Tell him to take a hike and put him on your blocked bidder list.

or

Send him a circulated wheatie like HRH did to me once.

Theop

He seems like a pretty experienced ebay'er given his feedback. He may just be looking for a free lunch since it doesn't cost him anything to ask you for money back. He probably figures that he has nothing to lose by appealing your sense of fairness.

Your auction appears completely reasonable and since he is outside of the return time limit, I don't think you have any reasonable obligation to refund him any money.

Alternatively, you can just tell him you grade on the ASA-Accugrade scale (or the Crazy4Coins) scale and that scale is not the same as ANACS. If he doesn't like that, then sue him. Isn't that how it works these days?

ajia

Although I agree with the previous replys, you did not state what type of 'dollars' these were.

The value on the MS64's may have more than covered the purchase price.

Kindly tell him you graded the coins as fairly as you could, I don't think the 2 AU will make " the average grade of all 20 coins will be well below MS63."
Right now the average is MS62, & depending on this next submission may get back OVER MS63.

Sorry, just went to the eBay link.
Peace in MS 64 gain about $20 over MS63, 5 of those more than cover the $9 for the 2 AU's.

telecoin

Considering that the buyer sells overgraded junk with no return policy and you gave him a pretty good deal with a liberal return policy...tell him to hit the road.

NoGvmnt

Tell him to send back the 5 that graded 64 in the Anacs holders along with the the 1 that graded 55 (the 60 is UNC) and you will try to send him 6 that grade Unc (reminding him that MS 60 is Unc).

"I would appreciate compensation for the difference in value between 2 AU55 coins and 2 MS63 coins, which is $9 per coin according to Coin Values Online (formerly Trends). I welcome any other suggestions."


He wants you to give him $9.00 credit for each coin he paid $11.73 each for? Giving him an average cost of $2.73 each for coins that the melt value is around $7.55 each?

And then remind him that the CU price for those 63s and 64s will net him 2-3 times what he paid for them and ask him to return all profit that he makes on the coins to you.

Also, remind him that, unlike yours, most rolls purchased on Ebay don't come near the grade stated by the seller.

Jim

Russ

Telecoin,

Good point. This is from one of his auctions:



<< <i>Note: The grade of this coin is determined by the 3rd party grading service. Therefore, bid based on your trust of the particular grading service as there is no refund on certified coins. >>



For an NTC graded POS coin.

Russ, NCNE

Purple73

I don't have much experience in this area but this is what I think is fair.


You offered a refund of the money within 10 days if he wasn't happy with the purchased coins.
Even a new collector with a ANA grading book and a little knowledge of the coins purchased would be able to grade the coins somewhat close. I believe they would surely tell the diff between a Circluated coin and a Mint State coin. I mean I have started collecting Franklins since 1/04 and even I know the diff between the two. All it takes is a bit of research and motivation to learn. If the buyer could not have done this he could have easily taken the coins to a coin shop and had a dealer help him with the grading of the coins. That could have been done within 10 days very easily.
The buyer also left a feedback saying that he was pleased with the purchase.

With all of that being said, the seller told the truth about the coins AVERAGING mint state, and the buyer was pleased with his purchased after he looked at the coins. If the buyer had any doubts , this should have been done within the 10 days he was allowed for a refund.

Wave buh bye to the buyer.

PURPLE!

Placid

Tell him to send back the 5-MS64's the 2-MS62 the 1-MS60 and the 2 AU55's in the anacs slabs and you will send him 10 63's.

relayer

<< <i>and the average grade of all 20 coins will be well below MS63. >>



In statistics, there are three measures of central tendancy: Mean, median and mode.

The mean (which is the sum of the grades divided by the number of coins) is 61.9

The median (the point in which half are above and half are below) is 63

The mode (the most frequently occurring ) is 63 and 64

An "average" can be defined as any one of those three (which is how statisticans can lie and still tell the truth).

I would explain the "average" grade is MS64, which is higher than the 63 that was adverstied. I would tell him the coins were sold as a lot and that you would be willing to issue a refund for the entire lot, but not on individual coins.

Crazy4Coins

I was pretty sure I was being reasonable to his request.

It appears that after receiving the 5 yet to be graded coins back, even if they come back 60-61, that the value will be above his cost.I am sure he will resell them for a small profit.

I even considered telling him if he wanted a refund, to send me all 20 of the coins back after they had been graded along with the receipt from ANACS and I would refund the purchase price plus the cost of grading. I bet he would opt to keep them then huh!

As always thanks for your opinions,
Randy

BigE

Since this guy appears less honest than you from his auctions, how do you even know these "circ" dollars are the ones you sent him?------------------------BigE

CapAnson

So you didn't explicitly state every single coin was unciculated, but he complains after he submits them to a third rate grading company, and get back grades that are just a smidge below the arbitrarily stated average, with a third of the coins grading 65 and making the entire purchase well worth it, and he does all this 90 days after the auction? Tell him to go pound sand. (In a polite way)

airplanenut

Too bad for him...

I'm in my law class (teacher's lap top) and there's a poster behind me that says, "Ignorance is not a defense in a court of law." Likewise, I don't think ignorance is an excuse in this case, either. If he can't grade himself, that's his perogative, but not your problem.

Jeremy

goose3

and you're supposed to believe the AU55's were in your roll exactly WHY?

tell him to go find a round room and piss in the corner.

The nerve of some of these clowns that are encountered on Ebay.

Crazy4Coins

You guys are just too funny !!

goose3

better yet,
tell him that you definitely did Clearly make an error and somehow Goofed and included in the roll, the AU55's As well as the MS64 coins and that you would like the MS64's cracked out and returned to you.

edsondl

1. Have him send the entire roll of twenty back to you in the original, untampered-with container.

2. Thank him for proving your ability to grade coins. 5 63's and 5 64's is pretty spot on with only 2 AU's.

3. Tell him to crack out the two AU's and send them back in to ANACS. We all know that TPG's don't get the grade correct everytime.

4. Tell him that in deciding to sell on ebay you took into account the difference in value of betwen the best and worst coins in the bunch, so that the value of the set was about the same as twenty 63s.

5. Tell him that he is a moron for sending 63 and 64 quality 1922 peace dollars for grading at ANACS. A PCGS graded 1922 MS63 goes for about $21. After shipping and grading, the increase in value of the coins can not be much of anything at all.

pontiacinf

someone here is looking for something for nothing. If you feel you need to refund money on the 2 coins, have him return both coins "FIRST"

But i wouldnt even do that. Id tell him sorry but this sale 90 days later is "FINAL"

mercurynut

Tell him to get a real life! Show him all the responses of this tread and he will understand that he is unreasonable.