Why not sue PRO?

jonnyrock

Quotes from their website:

"PRO will not grade cards which bear evidence of trimming, recoloring, restoration or any other form of tampering, or are of questionable authenticity. In the vent PRO rejects any card for grading, the fee paid by the customer for the services WILL NOT be refunded because the determination to rejects a card will require a review by PRO's grading experts."

"However, we demand that every card be examined closely and authenticated before the grading begins. It is stupid to see counterfeits and altered cards in any grading company's holder."

"A grading company should know papers, ink, photography, and printing techniques, as well as knowing how to measure centering, check corners and look for surface wear. At PRO we also take the time to properly identify each and every card, and we offer the most complete information in the industry on our labels."

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So would it be possible to buy some highly graded vintage cards graded by PRO that are clearly trimmed, and then sue PRO. One could clearly make more money from the suit than the cost of the cards (ie. what the cards would cost if they were truly mint and not trimmed). It would involve some serious investment of time, but could put these guys out of buisness.

any thoughts?

helionaut

You'd have to prove that they willfully misrepresented their evaluations as regards to their promises. If a card is short, is that evidence of trimming, or evidence that the card is short? If you stack up 1000 cards, especially pre-90s cards, chances are at least one or two will be noticeably short or long compared to the majority. You would have to prove beyond a doubt that they believed that a card was trimmed after it came out of a pack, and still graded it as authentic and untampered. I don't know how you'd do that, aside from getting a job as a grader and witnessing it first hand. Then you'd have to show damages. Since there is no law about what constitutes a baseball card expert, no state or Federal certification, and not even any real concrete rules within the hobby, anyone can claim to be an "expert" and then they can hide from such claims under the guise of their service being advice, not a revelation of absolute truth. The biggest loophole is that it can be claimed that the cards are trimmed after being graded by Pro, or that they are not even the same cards. There's not a real chain of provenance there. I don't know what their holders look like, but I don't think there's a real "tamperproof" one made yet.

I could be wrong about all this, so please feel free to try it. In the end, you might end up owning Pro, but that's not going to be worth much.

CON40

helionaut;

Very well put! You make the case why PRO and card doctors can maintain their existence. There simply is no legislation or policy regarding the "authentic" nature of sports cards. It is simply too hard for authorities to prove the crime, ie: who actually perpetrated the doctoring and at what point in the chain of the card's life? You just can't prove that with any certainty.

And the mere fact that other graders have encapsulated altered cards (a fact that is easy to prove for PRO compliments of FGS, ASA, etc.) gives them all the evidence they need to claim two things: card grading is an inexact skill at best with no governing policy to identify altered cards decisively, and they are unwitting dupes of card doctors just like any other grading company.

The only way to stop them is to stop the cash flow. If they can't make enough money for their troubles, they will go away.

shouldabeena10

Con,

You are correct.... always follow the money.

There are actually 2 wars being fought here. The first one, and toughest one, is against the grading company, which has earned the reputation for being the clearing house for doctored cards. It would probably be tuff to have the owner convicted of out right fraud... because of the "opinion factor" when it comes to grading cards. But the real goal is just to get them to GO AWAY. If that could happen by 60 minutes doing a news story about the problems... that would be fine. If it could happen by the Attorney Generals office contacting the owner about a possible investigation that would be fine too. The Better Business Bureu, the local news stations in Tampa, the FBI's Internet Fraud Hotline, ... the list is fairly long of organizations that could "look into" his business practices and make him realize that his days are numbered.

There are many angles to pursue when going after a business. His company claims to reject trimmed cards, and they are selling a service for card authentication, so it could be something as simple as a few small law suites for "false advertising." If he was forced to reinbursing a few buyers for the losses they took on a Mint 10 Mantle, I'd imagine he'd fold up pretty quick. I don't know which angle would work the best, or the fastest, but I'm certain if enough of us try different angles that one of them will stick.

The second war is against the guys that are actually doing the trimming and reselling... they should be a little easier to close down because the trail is there, if you just look close enough. The local law enforcement in their home towns is the best way to get rid of them. If you file a report with the local police they have to look into it and they will usually follow up.... it may take a while, but it works.

These guys are not some big operation... they are just guys on computers like you and me. They log on, buy cards, trim them, send them to get holdered, and resell them. There is no grey area on this issue, they are straight up working a con to defraud people of money. I hear people say that you can't get rid of them because it's not illegal to trim a card. That is true. It is also not illegal to roll back the odometer on your own car if it's parked in your garage ... it is your car and you can do with it as you please. What is illegal ... is to roll back the odometer in an attempt to defraud either a buyer or the MVA into thinking the car has less miles on it. If you buy a card and want to trim it and hang it on your wall... you're fine. But if you buy a card and trim it, with the intent of defrauding people out of money ... that is illegal.

I also would think that by catching a few of the trimmers... it might be the best way to bring down the mother ship PRO. There are only a handfull of people that submit cards to him, and if they stop submitting cards, then he has no income coming in ... and no reason to stay in business. I also find it hard to believe that a couple of the trimmers wouldn't "roll over on him" when faced with criminal fraud charges... you know he's probably had several conversations about the ethics of what he's doing with some of his better customers. And I'd also bet that he's not been content with the money he makes for just grading cards... and if you dig deep enough you'll probably find a link between him and some of the resellers.

Always follow the money!

Mike

CON40

Why are we doing this on two concurrent threads?

goodriddance189

<< <i>There simply is no legislation or policy regarding the "authentic" nature of sports cards. >>



actually, there is (at least in Cali, not sure about other states). the law usually pertains to artwork, but it has been used to prosecute comic/card restorers.

it basically says that if you knowingly sell an altered collectible as authentic, you are breaking the law. if PRO states that they do not grade trimmed cards, and they do, they are infact misrepresenting an altered item as authentic.

two ways to fight this-
hiring a lawyer. but unless you can get a group of people together that have been ripped by PRO to file a class action lawsuit, it really isnt worth it. if you file criminal charges, you would be doing the hobby a huge favor, but itd cost a ton.

the other thing (which i have contemplated) is to contact the FBI. they have a memorabilia crimes unit, Operation Foul Ball, which went after many of the autograph forgers in the late 90's. i havent heard much from them recently, but im sure theyre still around. i believe they also dealt with counterfeit cases. this would probably be the best route to go.

jrinck

Putting PRO on 60 Minutes is a bad idea. ANY publicity for them will only alert potential fraudsters to them. Putting PRO on 60 Minutes would be like the police issuing an alert telling the public to "Avoid Jim Josephson at 6100 Ardmore Drive because he launders money for drug dealers."

WinPitcher

So then in a nut shell

NO CONTROLLING LEGAL AUTHORITY strikes again!

CADILLACN97

once again, i agree with CON40. the only way to stop them is to stop giving them money!! people need to educate themselves and stop supporting the dealers who support PRO.

as i said in another thread, the owner/founder of PRO was also the owner/founder of 2 other grading companies that are now gone. so what, stop PRO?? then the guy will have another company tommorrow. and there will always be a PRO card somewhere in the population, so what is really getting accomplished. who is gonna be the one to buy them and destroy them? not me. i am EDUCATED enough to not buy the crap under any circumstances.

the only way to put a company out of business is to stop giving them money.