Mastro - This is the stuff I don't appreciate being grouped together

The53Kid

Check out lot #1792.

I'd really like to have the 1973 Topps 53 reprints. But look at all the other stuff grouped with it. And check the price already!!

I'm sure others would have liked to Greatest Moments or the Standups. These are kinds of lots that would do better in smaller increments.

Any thoughts on what is the final destination of this lot? Will a dealer buy it and break it up?

ATTENTION: If anyone out there happens to actually win this thing, give me a shout and I'll buy the reprints from you.

Thanks

1954

I will talk to you after the auction.


1954

packCollector

that's the real unfortunate thing about an auction like this. They have so much stuff and they want to cater to the super high end collector /dealer that lots like this happen #933 is a similar lot, what the heck is all that stuff ? and why on earth would you sell 109 hockey uncut sheets together (lot # 875) ? there are some awesome sheets in that lot and there isn't even room to show a picture(71 sticker stamps, 69 4n1's)

The53Kid

1954,

When I first saw this lot I was contemplating trying to get a few board members together to go after it. The starting bid was $1500, and it was up to $7500 in a few minutes......jeez. I see the stuff I'm interested in is definitely the low priced stuff in the group.



1952 Topps box...aproaching 100,000...that didn't take long.

onegaucho

Man, that's too bad!

Well, if in fact someone from here wins it, I'd be interested in the leftover 1973 '53 reprints that TheKid doesn't want (after all, a good number of the ones he has is from me!)

BTW, Kid, what did you do with the Robinson that I sent you after you upgraded it?

The53Kid

I still have it....plus a few other doubles. I've also got a few raw cards I'm gonna send in.

I'd like to be able to say I actually found all 8 cards myself, even if they don't grade out high.

There are also two new sets that have been registered. Good ole' Dav had his set graded out, and someone else, "AJG". I've send AJG a couple emails, but no response. If he is listening, I'm really interested in your Lowery 9. Same goes for anyone else out there who could help me upgrade my set. Thanks!

murcerfan

53,
no offense, but don't hold your breath waiting for Andrew to reply on those cards.

54,
"I'll talk to you after the auction".......pu-lease.

The53Kid

Murcerfan,

So I take it you know the owner of the set? Do you think he won't reply because he has no interest in selling, or because it's his nature. I actually had offered to trade for the Lowery and send him upgrades for his set or cash...his choice. If you do know him and think he is up for some talks, please let him know of my interest.

Thanks

mikeschmidt

Mastro doesn't really like to sell items that will go under four figures - thus their minimum $100 consignment fee on all lots (e.g. about $700...). Obviously their average is around $4,500 - but that is skewed by a few of the high $$$ lots. I understand your point - Mastro simply is not the place to go anymore for specialty lots and small groups of cards. I empathize with you - but do not know the solution. I liked when they used to have the Spotlight auctions - but that was always intended as a one-off type event. There are a bunch of other outlets for nice items - and I'm hoping that the Robert Edwards auction fills in the gap for the type of non-graded items that would be awesome to have, but not show up in Mastro because of the "low" realizable value.

There is another random HOF graded lot that has a 1955 Bowman Rizzuto PSA 9 sitting in it. Seems tragic to me!

Basilone

We need to organize some investment groups!!!

sfmays24

I've got a Johnny Mize PSA 9 available... looking for Topps test-issue stuff and harder to find regional issues.

thank you,

sfmays24

CON40

53kid;

I'm glad I am not the only collector who feels like Mastro gives a cr@p about the shallow-pocket collector... they seem to market these auctions to big time collectors and dealers only... I know the catalog is quite drool-worthy, but in reality, it's kind of mean on their part to tease us with all this hi-end stuff, especially when they lump lots together to keep the prices exorbitantly high.

I know eBay has sever flaws, but I, for one, am thankful it's there!

This may not be a popular statement, but it's how these big auction houses make me feel.

onegaucho

I agree. Investment groups would be a great way to pool together some resources/funds.

murcerfan

I'm glad I am not the only collector who feels like Mastro gives a cr@p about the shallow-pocket collector... they seem to market these auctions to big time collectors and dealers

No offense, but you do have the option of asking them not to include you on their mailing list if it is that upsetting.

They have a very successful business model, and it would be foolish for them to cater to shallow-pockets at this point.

Think of it as one of life's little velvet ropes. Also, remember that these auctions have traditionally catered to hobby dealers much more than collectors. unfortunatly, what was once wholesale is now super-retail

edited to add: but I do agree that some of these lots just have too much wieght. 112 uncut OPC sheets all in one lot for example.

qualitycards

CON40 - Keep in mind, many of us collectors & dealers cannot afford many of their lots. But the upside is that the ones who do lay out the money on these lots will probably filter them out on eBay to recoup their money, so 1 way or another, you may have a crack at the cards you want...jay

Bearsnum34

<<<They have a very successful business model, and it would be foolish for them to cater to shallow-pockets at this point.>>>>


agreed but would it really hurt them to have a few lots available to collectors, like they did by putting 1 unopened wax pack in a seperate auction? I really doubt that it would detract from mastro's prestige in hobby collectable auctions.

minibeers

don't forget that shallowpockets sometimes become deep pockets. deep pockets who were shallow at one time have long memories...

minibeers

joedel

For those complaining that the lots are too big, I agree with Jay that many of these items will soon filter down through EBAY. This is the collector version of the "trickle-down theory". I have heard that Mastro has held back a pack or two from the best wax lots for the next auction in August. Of course, they will probably run them all as one lot!!!!!!!!!!!!! That may be one reason why many of the high end boxes are incomplete. Does that theory sound logical?

Also, I believe that onegoucho had a great idea. Many of you should originate an investment group where you can purchase group lots from these auctions - for resale of individual consumption. You may be able to run it like a company. Have a Board of Directors with a Chairman. Have everybody invest a certain amount and sell "shares" in the company. The board can then decide what to purchase. Of course, you would have to have set prices on items before you win them.

CON40

Wow!

I guess I touched a bit of a nerve here... I don't mean to sound like a welfare collector, but it would be nice if they decided to auction a whole box of 59s (or whatever) one pack at a time rather than as one one lot to one bidder... I am willing to bet they'd make even more money this way by "spreading" the wealth so to speak. Not only that, they'd be tapping into a whole new market of potentially loyal customers!

And I agree whole-heartedly that shallow pockets may very well be deep one day and some "eliteist" entities in the hobby may not be high on my list to deal with. I appreciate the dealers who treat a little guy (like me) the same as a big guy!

AlanAllen

Maybe it's time for Mastro to create a subsidiary that auctions lower-end stuff. Mastro lite, if you will. They have all the in-house expertise and networking that they need to make it work. Maybe they could buy a smaller auction house and keep its name so they can start with some brand recognition without diluting the name recognition value of the Mastro title.

Joe

onegaucho

I actually started an investment club with a good friend about 5 years ago. You'd be amazed at how quickly a "portfolio" can grow and how much easier it is to 'own' stocks (and more of them) that I wouldn't normally go out and buy for myself b/c of available funds, prices of some blue chip stocks, etc.

Cards are a different animal b/c most people buy cards for themselves. Although, I've always wondered if anyone else would be interested in pooling together money (nothing significant) but enough to buy some decent cards for secondary 'investment' purposes. All we would do is pick cards that we think will eventually rise in value over the course of time (most vintage cards do) and circulate the cards we 'owned' amongst each other throughout the year so we could all enjoy them....

It's an interesting concept, but I doubt it would work... (or would it?!) Anyone up for this with me?!

CON40

Andy;

Sounds intriguing... a couple questions: how much initial "investment" and how would we price the individual "shares"...

packCollector

my only complaints are the lots that seem like they just through together whatever to make them large enough , too large. the 100+ sheets lot, the leftover lot, and some of the graded lots where it looks like they through a bunch of random stuff together to get it up to a 3-4 k lot.

joedel

AlanAllen,

I belive they tried that; ie: MastroWest (used to be Oregon Sports), merging with Robert Edward Auctions (REA) several years ago and thus acquiring Ron Oser Enterprises, at the time a subsidiary of REA. Ron Oser Enterprises now IS the Philadelphia Mastro office. They also recently tested the "small lot" items with Slater's Americana auctions. That did not work. The problem with small lots in auction's like Mastro's, Leland's etc., is the costs are extremely high for the production of a single lot. The production costs for EACH PAGE in those catalog's is around $1,000 (maybe more). Has anybody seen the increase in costs for paper? High quality paper used in these catalog's is very expensive. In previous catalog's of 2-3years ago, Mastro actually LOST money on smaller valued lots. It just does not pay for them (or Leland's, etc.) to offer smaller lots.

packcollector,

Each lot in a Mastro auction is carefully scrutinized to maximize profits for the consignor AND themselves. Every lot is the product of a single consignor, and they are not thrown together without proper thought. Regarding the costs involved in production (see above) would it be practical to offer uncut sheets on, two or even a dozen at a time? The only way the auction houses take those items on consignment would be if the consignor agreed to very large lots of these items. This practice benefits both the consignor and the auction house. The consignor would not have any other place to go with these items, and the auction house reaps large fees in a cost productive manner.

To everyone,


The bottom line is that these auction houses are run like businesses, not as outlets for individual collections. Like any company, the more you buy or sell with them, the more they will cater to your needs (ie: collections). Almost all businesses ever created have a different business model now than when they started. Models develop and evolve over time as business environments and conditions change. Conditions have changed in the collectibles industry over the last 5-7 years (grading, authentication, etc.) and they have changed and evolved with them. Those businesses which do not adapt, go bankrupt.

Sorry if these real life facts offend anybody, as that is not my intention. I am trying to give fellow collectors some of the behind the scenes decisions within the auction process. It's actually too bad that the auction houses are so large, as this is one of the reasons, in addition to EBAY, which has effectively killed the various shows around the country.

packCollector

ok joedel , I need you to help me understand some things since my thought process is not that good. how does a lot of 109 hockey (lot #875) uncut sheets maximize things for the consignor? I'm confused. You are telling me that grouping 3 1966 uncut sheets with orr rookie on them into a lot with 106 othersheets will maximize the bid. also , 8 69 opc sheet will sell for more in the lot than on there own. both of the mentioned lots that I just gave examples of would sell for well over the minimum desired final hammer price.

here's another lot 933 , how the heck does all this stuff go together. they are either hiding something or did not think at all. I will be calling regarding the 68 opc in this lot, how can this group not gets it's own lot if it is legit?

after the careful consideration that mastro took on these lots I guess they decided to keep them together as there wasn't any space in the auction, but there was space for 3 separate koufax rookies?

I have no complaints on the boxes, that is the way they should be sold as they will sell for much more that way and the goal is to maximize profits for mastro and the consignor but these 2 lots mentioned above make no sense to me so I would like to be enlightened.

murcerfan

Joe,
you did a great job of explaining the way it is.
thanks for taking the time to do that.

joedel

The individual ORR sheet (Lot #875) is very high grade, and the reason it is a single lot. The other sheets (Lot 875) are grouped together to maximize dollars without being cost prohibitive. As a two page auction lot, the minimum bid is actually less that the cost of production! The consignor benefits because Mastro would not run any of the sheets unless they were grouped. If they weren't grouped, the consignor would still have them collecting dust in his basement (or attic), instead of stored on Mastro's shelves and in the auction. Another consideration is if the auction company decided to break this group up and sell, say, a dozen lots instead of one, you would need to photo each lot, taking up even more space. Demand is also a priority. Hockey does not have the demand that baseball does, thus three Koufax rookies are included, but the sheets are grouped. Either way, I don't think Bill Mastro really cares a wit about hockey sheets OR Koufax rookies. Unless an item is super rare or visually impressive in condition, to him its only junk.

I agree that there is some overlap on cards, but these cards are usually listed on separate days, thus avoiding the most conflict. Shipping many lots of hcokey sheets would be a shipping nightmare (encompassing a full day), whereas the entire lot will probably be picked up in person. Of course, the Koufax rookies are shipped much more easily.

The production of the hockey sheets for auction probably cost Mastro two days of work in reagrds to writing, storing, photography, etc. As many as five people were involved in all that work.

In regards to Lot 933, the title says it all! It was the balance of a collection for an individual consignor who likely has many other high-grade, high-ticket lots in the auction. I can see the consignor shaking when told all 450+ items will be one lot, until he was informed that none of it would be run separately. Sort of an all or nothing, take it or leave it deal. I have seen this happen many times in person. Where else is the consignor going to go with this material? They could EBAY it over the next several months or years, but does he have the time for that? Or, he could hold onto the items, but he really wanted to rid himself of everything. Why would he keep the "remainder" of his collection when the good items are gone? After absorbing all this info, the consignor usually relents.

I see the hockey sheets are still relatively cheap at $3,661. If the 1969 OPC sheets would go for well over the eventual hammer price, it does sound like a good deal. Are you a bidder?

I have over 150 bids in already and I am still going over the catalog. Am I going to win all of my bids, half or even twenty? Absolutely not, defintely not, and probably not. That's why consignors agree to the auction ground rules...Mastro brings the best prices on the best material. If the material is not the best, then they are usually grouped together.

AlanAllen

joedel,
Thanks for the info. What you say makes perfect sense, but it does seem like there is room for a profitable professional auction house somewhere between eBay and Mastro. Take care,
Joe

packCollector

joedel I can agree with you somewhat, my biggest complaint still isnt's answered about lot 933 which is why I will contact them, if the 68 opc lot of 27 packs are legitamate packs , it would sell for 7500 - 10k or more in nr mint condition , how can that not get it's own lot? and yes I am the current high bidder on this lot but will not go higher until questions are answered.

as far as the sheet lot, I would have easily bid 1500-2000 on the blank backed orr sheet that is in good condition and a similar bid on the 69 sheets. I have no use for 109 sheets so I will not be bidding. I already placed a bid on the single orr sheet that is listed so that I can bid later.

The53Kid

I must admit that while I would rather see these large lots broken up, I'm not pissed at Mastro for doing this. It's their business model, it works for them and they stick to it. However I would agree that it may not be the generating the highest return for the consignors. And I am hopeful that these large lots get bought by dealers and spread to the little guys. Just another reason we need to use this forum to make contacts. The more allies we have out there the sooner we might find the oddball things we are searching for.

As for the investment group, I would have to say that isn't my preferred route. I do believe it is more of an indivual pursuit and to get 10 people to agree on what items to buy might become a point of argument. I would be more interetsed in gathering a group of collectors with the same interests, let's say test issues. We know Mastro will group these items together. When the catelog comes out we search for lots we are interetsed in and try to pool our money to get the individual items we want. For example if a lot had 5 parts, 71 Greatest Moments, 67 Standups, 73 Reprints, etc...5 collectors each targets their favorite item and states a maximum bid for there portion. We tally the bids and place a collective bid. If we win we just take what we want. The only problem will be keeping Murcerfan and 1954 from fighting over the GM's.

So anyone wanting to pool resouces for lot #1792 should PM me, I have a price in mind for my piece....although the price may already be through the roof

Thanks

pc

what's all this talk about mastro's business model? joedel if you have 150 bids in i hope you arent a
consignor on 150 lots.these guys tried to go public illegally soliciting collectors just a few years ago and
failed miserably.as i see it,their business model is terrible as many of their partners have left the company.
the window closed just two years ago after the "parks bus sale" for museum type pieces they expected
directors to purchase with indiscriminate spending of non profit money that disappeared
with the downfall of mci,enron and the like.directors are more accountable these days and i see very
few items that cater to real money outside the wax products.if mastro is spending $1000 or $2000
per page then good luck to them.just because forbes magazine recommends them does not lend more credibility.
in fact forbes' recommendations have been as timely as those of business week which basically
guarantees one profits by doing the opposite of those recommendations.i like ebay's business
model and most of us accumulate the bulk of our collectibles with ebay.atleast with ebay one isnt
lied to by telephone salesman when a potential bidder calls for more accurate information on a lot
and sellers cannot bid upon their items.furthermore,ebay sellers may offer money back if not satisfied.
mastro will tell their largest customers to take a hike if they are unhappy and will NEVER get their
money back.i once had to wait 6 months for a replacement item instead of getting a lousy 8 or 9 thousand
back.heck these guys showed up at my door but were surprised that i didnt live in a 5th story walk up
on skid row.how come some of their packs are ungraded?.how come they've knowingly sold bad goods?.
real group of saints they are...right.

onegaucho

The interesting thing about an "investment" group would be if you all had a common interest... say, 1950 Bowman baseball. You could pool together your resources to put together a pretty decent set as well as get some pretty nice, high end cards. If you sat on them for a while, you'd stand to make more than the 2% most money markets offer currently!

joedel

PC,

I feel bad that your experiences with Mastronet has not been satisfactory. All of my transactions with them have thus far been well above average. Based upon the prices accrued thus far in this auction, I wish I had 150 lots consigned! I know of only one partner leaving the company, Rob Lifson, who left to revive his Robert Edward Auctions catalog auction. As I said in a previous comment, every company or group does not come up the perfect business model at the outset. I think only our founding fathers in the late 1700's have developed the "perfect business model", although many of those communists/socialists out their would disagree!!! Things change over time and those groups that adjust, survive, those that do not, wither. If Mastronet changed their model over the years, then it appears to have been for the better, and in their favor.

1) Mastronet did try to go public several years back, but I believe after the implosion of the internet "bubble" in the stock market, not many small interent companies went public. Actually, Mastronet was part of a 25 company internet conglomerate, that was trying to go public. Several of the other smaller companies under the umbrella failed, although Mastronet has continued to thrive. When viewing potential lots on their website you can view items closer up, and in a circualr manner, using the Xippix technology. This is one of those other companies under that umbrella that survived the interent collapse. It can hardly be construed as a "failure" on Mastronet's part that they never went public.

2) Where are your comments on the rosa parks bus sale with non-profit money coming from? It is true that the Rosa Parks sale was truly historic, but I believe The Ford Motor Company purchased this item for their own display. The consignor made out tremendously on the deal, as all they wanted was a high 5 figure sale price. That they actually received mid-four figures truly indicates the power of the Mastro auction process for desirable items. I did not hear of any complaints from either party regarding that transaction. In fact, another historically desirable item sold last year---the 1869 Cincinnati Reds trophy ball case with 19 trophy balls. A $400,000 sale price I believe can be viewed as "real money".

3) If you are unsure of items within their auction are legitimate, then I suggest you view items in person. They have an open door policy regarding this practice, and I have scheduled my own viewing for this Thursday and next Monday. It really does help the bidder decide which items to heavily go for, or which items to pull the reins in. Collectors and dealers as far away as California make appointments to view, many times staying overnight to view for consecutive days. I do not know of any bidder who viewed items in person, which have been unhappy with their purchases, or have had to wait 6 months for a replacement. Plus, I don't want to hear of any excuse about distance and time constraints. If anybody really wants to view items, they can make the necessary arrangements. In fact, I sometimes put items on my viewing list even if I am not going to bid, sometimes just to hold the bat that Babe hit a homer with, or to hold a MINT ball that Lou Gehrig penned with his own hands! It is truly a thrill to come in close contact with items used by these legends! I have even held in my hands the vaunted 1952 Topps wax box in the current auction!

4) I actually prefer to buy ungraded packs. I can not stand seeing perfectly good packs entombed in cheap plastic. I like the colorful packs stacked next to each other, displayed in front of the original boxes. I collect full boxes, and they make great displays. The packs do not look as nice when entombed. They can not even fit back in their original boxes! I have learned over my 26 years in collecting to authenticate my own items, whether they are unopened packs or sportscards. Do you really think that Mastronet sent those 1950's packs in the GAI for authentication? Absolutely not. They sent them in because when encapsulated, GAI assigns a little number in the upper right hand corner, increasing the packs value. I have also learned how to tell if a card has been trimmed, altered or recolored, and will not purchase any item deemed to be altered. Of course, everybody misses items once in a while, but I am comfortable with my abilities. I do submit thousands of cards each year to PSA for grading, mainly to increase the values of those items in order to make a profit on such material. I actually use my ability to properly authenticate and grade cards to make a profit. I have adjusted my original business model several times, and am currently involved in another transition!

5) From your comment regarding selling fake items, I trust you are referring to the umpire Al Clark fiasco. I imagine that if a former player or umpire came to any of us with actual items, stating they were used in historic games he played or officiated in, we would not likely be skeptical. Unfortunately, a few bad apples should not ruin the entire bushel.

I trust that your previous experience has caused your negative view on the catalog auctions. It might be beneficial to try them again, and to use some of the suggestions outlined above.

Here's to hoping that all of our collections increase after the auction.

murcerfan

I have even held in my hands the vaunted 1952 Topps wax box in the current auction!

that would explain the missing packs !

The only problem will be keeping Murcerfan and 1954 from fighting over the GM's.

no worries, I've moved on to a deeper darker part of the jungle.

murcerfan

the 1869 Cincinnati Reds trophy ball case with 19 trophy balls

I remember reading or hearing something (a rumor most likely) about mysterious provenance or evidence that the case was from a later period and/or the balls were not authentic . I'm sure the item was legit, and my memory may well be off again. Does anyone know what and or why claims, if any, were made.

NickM

murcerfan - apologize to Stump. He had a number of '71 Greatest Moments in PSA 7 that went off very cheaply yesterday because you weren't bidding on them.

From Mastronet's business model, the "accumulation" lots make sense. However, I think that many of these are actually very bad for the consignor, especially those that don't fit into the average high-end collector's interests (e.g., graded cards of HOFers scattered across a number of sets). In most of those cases, I think ebay or a smaller auction house (SCP, Mile High, etc.) would be far more appropriate for the consignor's profit, because splitting such a lot is much more likely to leave it where bidders want all the cards in a lot, and therefore will pay full value for it.

Nick

Vargha

I think that the investor group model is referred to in the industry as a "dealer".

Glynparson

As usual Joe Delgrippo is spot on he knows of what he speaks and what he says should be taken as credible and on the mark.

pc

) Mastronet did try to go public several years back, ... It can hardly be construed as a "failure" on Mastronet's part that they never went public

mastro salesmen called many registered users including me without regard to potential suitability among other
essential pre-IPO requirements designed to protect investors.i see louis bollman has his own website and i didn't
think he was affiliated with mastro.wasn't robert edwards auctions affiliated as well?.yes,ron oser and i believe
others are no longer affiliated with mastro after having been "principals".

the rosa parks bus sale was a reference to the museum type pieces that no longer are viable consignments
for mastro if they expect corporate directors to purchase memorabilia of any sort to grace their walls.that is
just my opinion based upon the changes in the corporate world and the greater accountability to which directors
are now subject.

"If you are unsure of items within their auction are legitimate, then I suggest you view items in person. "
i believe it is up to the integrity of Mastro to sell ONLY legitimate items or describe them in detail as to
their illegitamcy.dont tell me the cello pack from 1954 with williams and aaron was genuine.furthermore
i know consignors and buyers that have purchased BAD CELLOS AT MASTRO.i also have purchased an item
that was completely misrepresented to me ON A TELEPHONE CONFERENCE.