Worrisome development in high-quality counterfeits?

originalisbest

Perhaps I've personally got little reason to worry - as I can't afford the coins in question - but Michael Fahey writes in Coin World that detecting cast counterfeits will grow ever more difficult, as new and improved methods can not only solve the telltale seam edge, and the matter of specific weights, but so advanced are they that microscopic die polish lines can be meticulously reproduced off a host coin - usually just one additional copy is made - and if the host coin is not available or known for examination - the fake can be VERY difficult to ferret out.

As such, should collectors of 1796 quarters, 1794 dollars, 1796-7 halves start fretting?

Placid

JadeRareCoin

As such, should collectors of 1796 quarters, 1794 dollars, 1796-7 halves start fretting?


Oh yes. Yes, yes, yes. They (we) should not start worrying. This has actually been a big problem for over 20 years. But it is true that the populations of rare coins increases year after year.

Baley

should collectors of 1796 quarters, 1794 dollars, 1796-7 halves start fretting?

depends. What grade are these counterfeits likely to be?

And for owners of the above coins (myself not lucky enough to be one) how long has it's existence been known (auction records, etc) in other words, does the coin have a provenance?

If nice, rare coins start appearing from nowhere, sure, there's cause for concern.

JadeRareCoin

I know of one 1794 dollar in particular that is a known counterfiet that fooled the world's leading experts. There are more fakes out there than we care to know. I just try not to think about it.

MrEureka

I know of one 1794 dollar in particular that is a known counterfiet that fooled the world's leading experts.

What grade was it? Method of manufacture?

originalisbest

I don't think that the counterfeiters would purposely copy a dog of a coin - but I'm almost certain they aren't going to try and make another MS-66 1797 half as was recently auctioned. They may well reproduce a host coin and then circulate it up a bit to give it its own "unique" characteristics. It seems as tho the columnist said, pretty much all the authenticators can rely on is their hunches, if it gets that good. As jade said, there was the case of a 1794 dollar that fooled the experts for a time.

What this may well do is cause particular specimens with a known, long history - with old plates in various "numismatical" treatises - to be even more valued as "the real deal". Any new "discovery" coins, however, will eventually be met not with elation, but a jaundiced eye.

originalisbest

I believe scardinal went into some detail about that particular 1794 - I'm not sure of the nitty-gritty details regarding it.

JadeRareCoin

What grade was it? Method of manufacture?

Jules Reiver's book on early dollars, page 13. t looks like a VG coin. Method of manufacture appears to be cast, but more well done than the usual cast coins. Read page 13. It's a great read, although scary.

ddink

If the coin is molded, wouldn't it lack metal flow lines, and thus luster?

Rob790

Any cast coin would require an alloy to go from a molten state to a solid state in some type of mold, this means that the metal must now be in a state where it is very soft, in other words the metal is in an annealed state. Metals only get hard from shock or stress, like the minting process where it is squeezed between two sufficiently hardened dies and a collar. All minted coins are harder than their stress free alloys that are in an 'annealed' state. I don't care how detailed a cast counterfeit is, even if it has microscopic flow lines and looked 'perfect', there is NO way that the metal will be as hard as in a real coin, period! A non-destructive test of the hardness around the rim using a special type of machine that determines the hardness by using sound waves should reveal the fakes. Even worn out specimens would still exhibit a higher degree of hardness.

Even a close examination of the alloy content should reveal a fake, coins from different mints or different times from the same mint with the 'same composition' will have their own peculiarities. These peculiarities are usually trace elements found in each coin. Gold coins from Dahlonega will look different from gold coins from San Francisco mint. And depending on the era when the coin was made at the same mint, I suspect that they would also look different under a spectroscopic examination. Faking this would be hard, even if they used real coins from the same time frame and melted them down, they'd probably introduce new trace contaminations that could reveal them.

Spotting a fake is not impossible, and the certification services need to get up to speed if they know the fakers are improving thier methods and there are new threats to collectors.

cladking

<< <i>Any cast coin would require an alloy to go from a molten state to a solid state in some type of mold, this means that the metal must now be in a state where it is very soft, in other words the metal is in an annealed state. Metals only get hard from shock or stress, like the minting process where it is squeezed between two sufficiently hardened dies and a collar. All minted coins are harder than their stress free alloys that are in an 'annealed' state. I don't care how detailed a cast counterfeit is, even if it has microscopic flow lines and looked 'perfect', there is NO way that the metal will be as hard as in a real coin, period! A non-destructive test of the hardness around the rim using a special type of machine that determines the hardness by using sound waves should reveal the fakes. Even worn out specimens would still exhibit a higher degree of hardness.

Even a close examination of the alloy content should reveal a fake, coins from different mints or different times from the same mint with the 'same composition' will have their own peculiarities. These peculiarities are usually trace elements found in each coin. Gold coins from Dahlonega will look different from gold coins from San Francisco mint. And depending on the era when the coin was made at the same mint, I suspect that they would also look different under a spectroscopic examination. Faking this would be hard, even if they used real coins from the same time frame and melted them down, they'd probably introduce new trace contaminations that could reveal them.

Spotting a fake is not impossible, and the certification services need to get up to speed if they know the fakers are improving thier methods and there are new threats to collectors. >>



Excellent point. It would seem that sound should travel a little more slowly through a fake.

glassman

I'll tell you how accurate mold making techinques and materials can be. I work with glass ( at 2100F) we have mold making materials that are so accurate at reproducing details that I've seen faint fingerprints reproduced in the glass.... so, how about that fingerprint on Your coin? I've heard some say that prints are a sign of originality on an old coin, hmmm

BigGreek

I recently got fooled into buying a counterfeit seated dollar. Although this is certainly not in the league of the types of fakes we are talking about here are some things I noticed. The coin was cast but had no edge marks. It's apparent condition was XF but under magnification it had no luster. It also lacked any bright polished metal surfaces at contact points. It appear the alloy they used was the wrong color: the apparent toned color of the coin was not due to tone but mostly due to the color of the metal. Again under magnification (20x and 40x) I noticed minute pits which gave away the casting. The other intereseting thing I found: the coin made a different pitch note when tapped. It sounded one or two notes higher than a real coin. I eventually got my money back. Seller claimed he thought it was real.

Proof

If third party grading services cannot detect cast counterfit coins or coins that are lasered, will they continue to exist ??

It seems that somebody with a good knowledge of numismatics, could pick certain dates in almost any series, that would not stand out. Can a cast counterfit coin be made for Proofs ??

No wonder Collectors Universe is downsizing. They have to get up to speed and spend some money to counteract the new high tech
counterfiters.

Counterfit diamonds can now fool the experts, so I for one believe a counterfit coin can be made to pass through the tpg services.

Maybe the counterfitters will become so prolific, that all raw coins of any medium to high value, will become suspect and only the coins that have been already slabbed will pass as genuine and therefor be worth many times their present value. This would have one good side effect. No more crackout artists.

Sorry, just daydreaming. I'm sure the TPG services will 'bodybag' the coins and the culprits.

Although, with the admitted ten seconds per coin of grading time, how will the TPG services have time to test coins with high tech machinery, if the "high tech machinery" even exists.

Also, how would they lug all this equipment to coin shows ??
Serious questions for the two Davids !

originalisbest

The vast majority of coins, it wouldn't be cost-effective for the counterfeiter to try and reproduce them so carefully. With particularly rare pieces, these specialized tests may welll need to be used.

Placid

How much do you guess it costs to reproduce them?
Over $1,000?

WACoinGuy

<< <i>The vast majority of coins, it wouldn't be cost-effective for the counterfeiter to try and reproduce them so carefully. With particularly rare pieces, these specialized tests may welll need to be used. >>



If PCGS spends only a few seconds examining coins sent in for gradings, and the average value of coins they look at is about $1,500, I'd think it would be quite easy to get a good counterfeit of a non-ultra-rare piece through the grading services. Probably anything worth less than $5,000 or so wouldn't get extra attention from the graders.