Numistrust Corporation?

ocstockpicker · April 4, 2004 11:47AM

I just purchased a $20 st gauden MS66 from NTC it appeared that the coin was cheap but I'm know starting to have doubts on the unknown. Can someone help me out here?

ealandg · April 4, 2004 11:49AM

Hmmm. How to put this gently... I believe it is extremely rare for an NTC coin to cross at the same grade at PCGS or NGC.

DennisH · April 4, 2004 11:49AM

That was gentle!

ocstockpicker · April 4, 2004 11:50AM

If the coin was MS66 any ideas?

Russ · April 4, 2004 11:50AM

I'm not as gentle. NTC is absolute garbage. The worst on the market; even worse than PCI.

Russ, NCNE

nankraut · April 4, 2004 11:53AM

I agree with Russ...If you're lucky, it's a MS63 or so, and hopefully not cleaned.

ocstockpicker · April 4, 2004 11:56AM

THanks for the good news

ealandg · April 4, 2004 12:01PM

Just crack it and cross it. You said you got it cheap. It might be just a few points lower...

Stuart · April 4, 2004 12:15PM

ocstockpicker: If you'd care to post an image of your coin on this thread we'll take a look at it and provide you with our opinions on the coin's grade if you'd like... I am quite familiar with the St Gaudens series....

joecool · April 4, 2004 12:17PM

NTC over grades like PCI and ACG do.............

Placid · April 4, 2004 12:18PM

Yes post a link or a picture.

Goldfinger · April 4, 2004 12:21PM

The bad news is that you Saint Gaudens is almost certainly not an MS66. The good news is that it probably IS a genuine Saint. (Some of the less reputable services, such as ACG, have been known to slab counterfeits).

If you plan to keep it, crack it out of the holder. If you want to sell it, send it to PCGS (or to ANACS if it's been cleaned).

-Jay

northcoin · April 4, 2004 12:30PM

I'm no defender of NTC, but the reference to "counterfit" did jog a recollection of a test sampling that was done a year or so ago with one of the "reputable" grading services not catching the counterfit while I believe either Accugrade or NTC did. Anyone who recalls the experiment in more detail please feel free to add or correct.

Russ · April 4, 2004 12:43PM

If you're referring to the Coin World deal, ACG caught it, NTC didn't.

Russ, NCNE

Baley · April 4, 2004 12:45PM

New Mis Trust grades a Full Grade or Two high on circulated coins (their EF is everyone else's Fine or VF) and at least a point or two high on uncirculated coins.

An NTC 66 saint is likely to be somewhere between AU58 and 65, most likely is a decent MS64 coin.

how much did you pay?

ScarsdaleCoin · April 4, 2004 12:54PM

have to be aware of fakes....two guys stopped at my table 2x today to sell me 3 gold coins ....2 saints and 1 mexican.....the mexican was ? one saint was cleaned beyond belief and the nice looking saint that he wanted $650 for was fake....you should have seen his face when I pulled out my fisch to check the coins...

JadeRareCoin · April 4, 2004 1:11PM

you should have seen his face when I pulled out my fisch to check the coins...

How do you check a coin with a fish??

JadeRareCoin · April 4, 2004 1:12PM

Numistrust Corporation?

ocstockpicker · April 4, 2004 1:21PM

Here is the picture

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3905615406&category=39472&sspagename=STRK:MEBWN:IT&rd=1

Placid · April 4, 2004 1:23PM

JrGMan2004 · April 4, 2004 1:23PM

Placid · April 4, 2004 1:24PM

Placid · April 4, 2004 1:26PM

I think it is about a 63 at most. The color seems splotchy so it might have been cleaned at some time.
$860 seems like alot to me but I have not priced saints in while.
On the plus side it looks to me to be well struck.

After taking a quick look at prices if it were me I would return it.

Aethelred · April 4, 2004 1:34PM

It could just be the scan, or the coin may have been cleaned, but I do not have a good feeling about that one, it has this dull look that makes me uneasy. It would not be the first fake in an NTC holder!

oreville · April 4, 2004 1:36PM

Nasty cut on the rim at 8 o clock of the obverse (unless that is a toning double line) as well as nicks on the reverse rim.

Should possibly survive as a MS-62.

Tonelover · April 4, 2004 1:40PM

It would appear that you got a coin worth about $625 or less. In my opinion you should take advantage of the seller's return privilege and only look at coins certified by one of the grading companies that stand behind their grading (more or less) like PCGS, NGC and ANACS. Just because someone on ebay put a coin between two pieces of plastic and stuck a label in there doesn't mean the coin is what it is purported to be. And don't shop by price, cheap coins aren't nice and nice coins aren't cheap. Buy a few of both and see what a difference it makes when you go to sell.

mrpaseo · April 4, 2004 1:49PM

OK, lets look at this.

'Insurance Message:
RETURN POLICY: Items may be returned for credit or refund less shipping, PayPal fees. Items must be postmarked within three days of receipt. The item can not be removed from original holder and/or plastic flips. NO RETURNS after three days of receipt, if removed from original holder or packaging, if it is damaged or the seal on the packaging is broken.

First of all, I thought it was Illigal at Ebay to charge for paypal fees even when returning.

Second, it says no returns if removed from holder or "Packaging" does he mean if you open the package that comes in the mail you must keep the coin? He even goes so far as to say the seal on the packaging.

I wouldn't touch this guys auction.

Sorry, I hope things work out.

mrpaseo · April 4, 2004 1:50PM

Well, looking at his feedback, I might bid, but with a few Emailed questions about what I stated above.

(I reciently learned my lesson)

Goldfinger · April 4, 2004 2:10PM

Definitely return it if you can. Even if it hasn't been cleaned, you've overpaid for an overgraded coin.

Russ · April 4, 2004 2:15PM

Since nobody else has, I'm going to ask the obvious question. Did you even look at those images before bidding? It's very obvious the coin grades nowhere near MS66.

Russ, NCNE

northcoin · April 4, 2004 3:25PM

Just talked to my local coin dealer who came back from a major show. He reported there were a lot of coins out there in questionable holders (PCI specifically) which had high grades and then the dealers were discounting them for sale. Apparently there are buyers (including dealers) willing to pay for coins they recognize as overgraded even if the selling price is more than the actual grade would merit. This works great for everyone in the purchasing scheme until you get to the ultimate consumer who gets stuck with the coin and then tries to resell it for what he paid for it.

ddink · April 4, 2004 3:45PM

mrpaseo, it *is* against the rules to include a surcharge for PayPal, however, sellers are free to choose how much, if any, money they are willing to refund their buyers. Some have an "all sales final" policy, others range anywhere from "minus shipping, eBay fees, PayPal fees, gas to the post office, and a tip for my postman" to "110% satisfaction guaranteed."

To the original poster, I'm very sorry for your bad experience, but how long have you been collecting coins? The first thing you should have done is, at very least, look up the definition of MS66 on the internet. At that point it would have been abundantly clear to you that the coin could not be anywhere close to MS66. The flaws on an MS66 coin are so miniscule that at first glance the picture probably would have looked perfect. Fifteen minutes of research can save you many hundreds of dollars. Nobody can accurately grade a coin by a picture, so if it looks MS63 and says MS64, maybe it is. But if it looks MS62 and says MS66, there simply is *no way* that's right.

Numistrust Corporation?

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