MASTRO AUCTION- too good to be true?

RG58

I don't know what to say. I was just reviewing the auction stuff online for the next sale. I use the population reports at PSA to gauge value of many items. Well not any more. Where does some of this stuff come from in this auction?
For instance 86 uncut sheets of o-pee-chee cards from the 60-70s (all complete sets)

http://www.mastronet.com/index.cfm?action=DisplayContent&ContentName=Lot Information&LotIndex=35945&CurrentRow=1

Is this stuff being auctioned on consignment from the card companies (TOPPS/O-pee-chee)?- perhaps it is from private collections of executives of the card companies? I would not bid on a lot like the one above unless I knew where it was coming from. Is there a Topps warehouse out there filled with this kind of stuff that gets auctioned every few years? I am not aware of personal collectors who are seeking uncut sheets of o-pee-chee cards to the extent of this collection. By logic, it seems it must be coming from the company. perhaps I am wrong- I am open minded! Please correct me if I am wrong!

Me, like the rest of you, are picking up low-pop PSA 8 or 9 commons on ebay for high prices and then this stuff comes along and it blows you out of the water!

thefootballcardstore

There does seem to be a lot of unopened or uncut baseball.
Jeremy

CW

<< <i>I don't know what to say. I was just reviewing the auction stuff online for the next sale. I use the population reports at PSA to gauge value of many items. Well not any more. Where does some of this stuff come from in this auction? >>



While it's hard to believe that Mastro can offer these rare lots, this
stuff is out there. Mastro has always offered items that make your
jaw drop - their reputation and exposure (they auctioned off the
McNall/Gretzky Wagner well before it was a million-dollar card) helps
them acquire the great items. I'm sure they also have teams of people
searching the world for rare stuff to consign.

Not sure if you're aware of this, but Topps has been selling off a
treasure trove of cool items over the past few years through their ebay
selling arm, thetoppsvault. They seem to have an unlimited
supply of original art, proofs, uncut sheets, and unopened material.

NewbietoPSA

You know RG, when I was looking earlier today, I was thinking the exact same thing. They have the first two years or Topps baseball and hockey in packs. Where was this stuff in 2000 when cards were selling more? Why did it come out now? What makes mastro so special to get it. Sure they sold the gretzky Wagner card, but so did ebay. Why don't the owners of these items sell their stuff on ebay? They will probably make a lot more as ebay has about 13million members who don't have to shell out $100 to join, why mastro charges you to join, charges you a buyers fee and probably only has a few hundred or a few thousand members. I agree with you about the rarity re,ark. You feel like this stuff is rare in high grade, then boom a ton of unopened pascks show up. In theory, shouldn't all the cards their grade at least a PSA 8? If you end up getting 3 PSA 8 or 9 Mantles from the 1952 Topps, what does it do to the poor sap that spent all that money previously thinking there would be no more 8's or 9's? They must have gotten this stuff directly from Topps, and topps must only sell this stuff whenever they want to make a little extra cash. I heard a story a long time ago that a topps employee had every baseball set topps produced their first 40 years. Supposedly he died I think and his grandaughter threw them all out not knowing the value. If that story is true, how many other Topps employees may have a ton of sets lying around?

TheCARDKid

This collection of unopened material does seem hard to fathom. How so much of it ended up in a single auction is suprising.

When was the last time you saw ANY pre 1968 Topps hockey nickel packs? How many have traded hands in the last year? A dozen, if that. And here's Mastro with over 50 packs from 54/55 and 57/58. Amazing.

pc

i for one would blow out every card i owned
in psa 9 if vintage unopened showed up like that in a year i collected.
i remember when mastro had many cases of 76 football.
how could anyone shell out for payton's RC and for
single packs in the face of that "find"?!?.

mikeschmidt

In general - there was a story about the closing down/finding of the Topps West Coast Vault that supplied many of the unopened sheets - so that partially answers the question.

As for many of the unopened boxes - I think Canada is likely the answer. If you notice - quite a few of the wax boxes have fewer cards in them than normal and more packs per box because they were slated for Canadian distribution....

MS

Yzerman19C

MS

I agree Canada is likely the source of the unopened as well as alot of the sheets. Possibly an OPC exec ?

Randy

NewbietoPSA

I know this will sound stupid to you guys and you will ridicule me for it for the rest of time, but has anyone ever thought that maybe Topps went back and printed these cards? An underhanded person knowing he can make a ton of money doing this could try it. Now I don't know if you can get cardboard to look 50 years old, but I have seen 40 year old PSA 10 cards in person and they looked like they were made yesterday. Let's say someone at Topps did do this. Would that card be considered a counterfeit, reprint, or be just as good as the originals?

mikeschmidt

Newbie:

Here's the thing:

Most of the 1952 and 1953 wax packs are only mid-grade (5.5 or so), presumably due to some sort of water or other damage. I'm actually pretty peeved that Mastro has not disclosed why these packs are graded so low.

More than anything else - the cutting techniques from today are so much different than that of fifty years ago. Even 20-25 years ago. That is why it is so easy to spot contemporaneously sheet-cut OPC cards from the 1970s

NewbietoPSA

yes but the standards for a PSA 10 are the same for a 1910 card as they would be for a 1990 card correct?

67standup

<< <i>In general - there was a story about the closing down/finding of the Topps West Coast Vault that supplied many of the unopened sheets - so that partially answers the question.

Care to elaborate on this story, it sounds interesting and I don't know the background?

mikeschmidt

You can get more details in the Mastro Catalog - think its at the beginning of the Americana section

TheCARDKid

I'd also be very curious to hear about why certain packs are graded so low. In their descriptions of the '53's, they state that "unknown Mint condition" cards could be inside. Yet the packs are Ex Mint at best. Are Mint condition cards even possible from a pack grading a 5 (with possible water damage). Collectors would love to know.

gemint

<< <i>You know RG, when I was looking earlier today, I was thinking the exact same thing. They have the first two years or Topps baseball and hockey in packs. Where was this stuff in 2000 when cards were selling more? Why did it come out now? What makes mastro so special to get it. Sure they sold the gretzky Wagner card, but so did ebay. Why don't the owners of these items sell their stuff on ebay? They will probably make a lot more as ebay has about 13million members who don't have to shell out $100 to join, why mastro charges you to join, charges you a buyers fee and probably only has a few hundred or a few thousand members. I agree with you about the rarity re,ark. You feel like this stuff is rare in high grade, then boom a ton of unopened pascks show up. In theory, shouldn't all the cards their grade at least a PSA 8? If you end up getting 3 PSA 8 or 9 Mantles from the 1952 Topps, what does it do to the poor sap that spent all that money previously thinking there would be no more 8's or 9's? They must have gotten this stuff directly from Topps, and topps must only sell this stuff whenever they want to make a little extra cash. I heard a story a long time ago that a topps employee had every baseball set topps produced their first 40 years. Supposedly he died I think and his grandaughter threw them all out not knowing the value. If that story is true, how many other Topps employees may have a ton of sets lying around? >>



For these types of ultra high end collectibles, eBay isn't necessarily the best place to sell. For the 15% on the Buyer's and seller's side, Mastro provides a clientel that has deep pockets and is matched with what is being consigned. No offense meant to any modern collectors, but many of eBays millions of members are looking for Garciaparra and Vick rookies. That's if they are even interested in sportscard collecting at all. Add to that the fact that many high $ buyers don't participate in eBay plus the risk of being defrauded and you end up with people consigning ultra rare items with the big auction houses instead of eBay. I've seen several cards trade on eBay and Mastro where Mastro's realized price well exceeds the eBay final bid plus the 30% vig. The Honus Wagner card on eBay was a special event where the bidders had to pre-register. It's not something they will be doing on a regular basis.

NewbietoPSA

I would have to say a bunch of 1952 tops packs rates up there with the Wagner as one hell of an auction.

Scoop

Gemint is correct. That is why I listed my PSA 8.01 complete set with them (lot #1495) and against the consensus of this board which stated on many threads that break-up value is much higher.

Basilone

RG58

Sorry to say, but I have toned down my buying of vintage cards for the next few months. This is mostly due to the number of high grade cards/unopened vintage cards in the last Superior auction and the upcoming Mastro auction. I am afraid I may have vastly underestimated the amount of high grade vintage material (singles and unopened packs) out there. I am afraid I am overpaying for cards that I thought were very rare.

The Mastro and Superior auctions will probably break records for prices but in the end the flood of new vintage material on the market makes me very nervous. (and possibly others!)

I'll just sit back for a few months, maybe occassionally bottom-feed on E-bay, and see where prices go.

WinPitcher

One reason their is a preponderence of uncut sheet material in the marketplace is Topps or whoever would farm out sheets to printers that had the machinery to cut it and many went out the back door.....in the 84 season the sheet with Rose and Brett was done in Peekskill NY and you guessed it......also score rookies w/griffey was cut and soon found its way out the back door too.

pc

More than anything else - the cutting techniques from today are so much different than that of fifty years ago. Even 20-25 years ago. That is why it is so easy to spot contemporaneously sheet-cut OPC cards from the 1970s

i see people buying 30,40 and 50 year old papercutters,ya know the ones with the
big slicer for 30 bucks on ebay.

gaspipe26

For the money that the unopened is going for, opening it would be a BIG mistake.

miami3

I agree, the value of the unopened packs is in the "not knowing" of whats inside.

For someone to buy these packs with the hopes of finding a Mint 52' Mantle or Mays rookie, they must be either crazy or very wealthy, ................................or maybe both.

Based upon the low grades that these packs got from Global, I would say that the cards inside arent even worth grading.

But then again, who knows??????

packCollector

YES, the people who are buying this unopened stuff don't really care about the money. It's irrelevant, they might open it just because they have nothing better to do with 10 thousand bucks. so is life, if you have the money to spend , spend it on what you like. If I had unlimited cash , i would have no problem paying 10-15 k per pack since i probably won't find another box of 52 topps.


on another note , just becasue the grades are low on the packs doesn't mean the cards will not be worth grading. I have had some very nice pulls from packs graded 5.5 and 6. It all depends why they were graded so low. either way, you would be destroying value by opening most of the packs in this auction even if they yielded 5 mint cards since 4 will probably be o/c. especially if I opened them.

Basilone

<< <i>I have had some very nice pulls from packs graded 5.5 and 6. It all depends why they were graded so low. >>



For $125k +++ I would make damn sure I knew the reason.

miami3

If I were Bill Gates, I would buy all of the packs and let my kids open them up outside of the corner Ben Franklin 5 and 10 and then let them put the cards on their bike wheel spokes just for fun.

Then I would auction off the bubble gum for charity!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1

uniship

VIDEOTAPE THE OPENING! I would gladly pay $20 to watch it. Heck, I would pay $50 to watch the opening of all of the packs - so would most of you I would bet.

mikeschmidt

<< <i>

<< <i>I have had some very nice pulls from packs graded 5.5 and 6. It all depends why they were graded so low. >>



For $125k +++ I would make damn sure I knew the reason. >>



John:

I stated elsewhere (can't find where - probably one of the dozens of deleted messages) that I asked Baker this specific question. He said that with the 1952 and 1953 packs, it was primariliy an issue with micro-tears in the packs. In fact, he mentioned that one 1952 pack was opened (assuming there was more than the one box....), and that it yielded one GAI 8, one GAI 9, and one card that would be equivalent of a 9 o/c.

MS