Ethical Question
ealandg
Posts: 705
OK. Recently I purchased a coin in a less-than-desirable holder. I attempted to cross this coin at PCGS. They rejected it. I don't know why, since there isn't any mention of damage on the holder and the dealer I bought it from told me that it was not cleaned or damaged. It is in its "bad" holder still.
I am thinking of selling this coin on Ebay so that I can raise some money for some other items I would rather have. Do I have an obligation to tell potential buyers that it was bagged by PCGS?
I am thinking of selling this coin on Ebay so that I can raise some money for some other items I would rather have. Do I have an obligation to tell potential buyers that it was bagged by PCGS?
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Comments
However, if they ask the question....you of course need to give a truthful answer.
I have many times asked dealers if they have submitted a raw coin they are selling to one of the grading services. A good portion of the time they will tell me how the coin came back. It's usually a coin with a very small scratch that I think my be acceptable to a major service on most days that I am asking about.
Did someone say something about Buddy Holly?
<< <i>............ a coin in a less-than-desirable holder.......... >>
Must be that ANACS holder that you so despise.
Really? Just because someone asks a question he's entitled to the truth? Why???
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
You don't say which holder it is in. The only one I would actually spend money to change would be ACG...maybe SEGS. I have some nice coins in PCI. Have had some in ICG. I actually like ANACS.
However, with the pig picture and everything...I felt there may be the distinct possibility that Ealandg might have a policitcal background in Arkansas.
I recently sold a bunch of damaged coins on Ebay and was very honest and (if anything) overly critical of the issues the coins had. I don't want anyone to be disappointed.
The real problem is that I lack the experience to detect what the reason for the bag is in the first place...
<< <i>Yes, it's a sad state of affairs these days that I felt compelled to add that comment.
However, with the pig picture and everything...I felt there may be the distinct possibility that Ealandg might have a policitcal background in Arkansas. >>
" the truth ". Depends on what truth "is".
Why pass the negative on to someone else? Don't you think your own karma ( ? ) would be better off making the disclosure so that the next owner can feel good about it? Or at least somewhat good about it.
TP
Coin's for sale/trade.
Tom Pilitowski
US Rare Coin Investments
800-624-1870
The grading services give an OPINION not an absolute answer.
<< <i>However, if they ask the question....you of course need to give a truthful answer.
Really? Just because someone asks a question he's entitled to the truth? Why??? >>
You make a good Republican!!!
<< <i>Really? Just because someone asks a question he's entitled to the truth? Why??? >>
Ah, Andy, you have the makings of a good attorney as well as a republican!
And by the way, yes, you should tell them that it didn't cross. Full disclosure would be nice thing in this business, especially from dealers.
Michael
Michael - So what if PCGS made a subjective decision not to cross the coin. They might cross it the next time, or even upgrade it. The question would be more interesting if PCGS stated that the coin was whizzed or repaired, since that is presumably not a subjective call. Yet, even in that case, I'd argue that the seller has no obligation to reveal the fact. But it would be "a nice thing", like you say.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
If you list if for sale on the B S & T board here and it did not sell should you be obligated to disclose that in your eBay description too? Since no reason was given, its safe to assume that PCGS thought the coin was overgraded. If they ask I would be honest, but you are not obligated to divulge that since its not really relevant. You are selling the item based on what SEGS thought of it not PCGS.
I try to sell the car, should I tell the potential buyer, GM, the more reputable of the two mechanics thought it needed a new transmission or should I stick with Harry's opinion. Of course if I reveal the possible defect then it might cost me some money in regards to the sale price.
There are always two roads, this business and hobby would be a much better place if more of us took the higher one.
Michael
1) Upgraded
2) Rejected for an upgrade
3) Downgraded when attempting to be upgraded
4) Crossed to another service
5) Attempted unsuccessfully to be crossed to another service
6) Presidential reviewed (or whatever the equivalent term is at various companies) resulting in a changed grade or in not a changed grade
7) All or some of the above at more than one service
8) Etc.
While I would personally like to know the information, and it would probably influence my opinion about a coin (thats just me), reality is even if you give full disclosure about what YOU know, you may not know the half of it, and the half that you DO know are subjective opinions of someone at some point in time. Based on that, I think your obligation is to do what 99% of all dealers do and that is to offer the coin in the holder its in, period, without attemtping to trace the coins history since its mint birth or justify whysome TPG thought something at some point in time.
On the other hand, what does bother me are the coins that have been treated, cleaned, dipped, enhanced, improved, conserved, etc. in order to get them into the highest holder possible. To me thats a different story and if you know that that happened or you yourself did it, I think you have an obligation to disclose that.
Since there is no absolutely correct answer to any coins condition, especially as expressed by TPGS, I feel that all that must be disclosed is the seller's evaluation of the item. The buyer may ask all the questions he wishes and if the seller provides answers, they MUST be truthful.
If the seller and the purchaser are both honorable numismatists, the easiest solution is to offer a 14 day refund, as do all members of the PNG in direct sales.
Auctions are a little trickier, but if the seller is the owner and is reputable, a return privelege remains the best solution. The only downside to this is the postage and sales costs, but it is worth the cost to have a satisfied customer.
Remember, if there are no collectors, all of our inventories can be spent or melted.
I firmly believe in numismatics as the world's greatest hobby, but recognize that this is a luxury and without collectors, we can all spend/melt our collections/inventories.
eBaystore
As in any business, integrity is highly variable depending on the individuals. Sustainable success comes from repeat business and reputation. Integrity is a competitive advantage in an industry where the consumer depends on the 'experts' guidance in subjective judgements.
To be less theoretical, I'd crack it out and submit it to PCGS. You can get different answers on different days. I believe they give reasons for BB. If slabbed, then proceed. If not and I was selling, I'd disclose what I thought were the issues.
What price can you put on integrity?
Link to 1950 - 1964 Proof Registry Set
1938 - 1964 Proof Jeffersons w/ Varieties
Thats exactly why its not necessary to volunteer the info. I have bought a lot of coins on eBay mostly in PCGS holders but a few in others as well. I have looked at many many more and I don't recall EVER asking a seller if a coin was submitted to a TPG other than to the one the coin is currently in.
When you put a person on the stand to testify do you instruct him to answer only YES or NO or can he qualify each and every answer.
<< <i>Since there is no absolutely correct answer to any coins condition, especially as expressed by TPGS, I feel that all that must be disclosed is the seller's evaluation of the item. The buyer may ask all the questions he wishes and if the seller provides answers, they MUST be truthful. >>
Amen.
Thanks for renewing my opinion that, even tho most people are honest, you still need to watch out for those who are not.
Regarding what to do with the coin - why don't you take it back to the dishonest dealer you bought it from and request a refund - if he told you it wasn't cleaned, and/or had no problems - and it truly does - then he was not honest and/or didn't know - and 'should' ETHICALLY give you a full refund!
I don't think it is fair to insinuate that Lustig is dishonest simply because he adopts a position contrary to yours on this matter. There is an immensely sizable majority of people who are familiar with the services who will tell you that opinions rendered by the big 3 (as well as by the lesser ones) are highly variable, even with regards to the matter of bodybagging and/or net grading.
I have seen MANY coins that one day is slabbed, and the next is not. Both directions, same service as well as different services. Try it more than twice, and you'll continue to get mixed results. This happens VERY often with early US coinage. I don't recall the coin in question (the topic of this thread)...
Consequently, why is a person dishonest simply because he recognizes the foolishness of accentuating the absolute worst about one's own merchandise?
You want honesty? Next time your wife, gf or whatever asks you for your opinion on her hair, dress, shoes or whatever -- answer her with brutal honesty and focus only on the negative. Do it, or you'll be branded by your own judgement to be dishonest.
Bottom line - the world ain't nearly so black and white as you make it out to be. And, don't be so quick to cast aspersions!
EVP
How does one get a hater to stop hating?
I can be reached at evillageprowler@gmail.com
I was going to say that you should disclose the PCGS bb if selling it raw, for the simple reason that you are obviously not comfortable in not doing so. Go with your gut feeling, it doesn't matter what anyone else says. It may not necessarily be the best business decision, but you will have a clear conscience
Why is it that so many folks will come here to ask for advice, yet only give out partial information and in dribs and drabs? Why not as much disclosure as possible from the beginning? I understand that some are trying not to muddy the waters with too much irrelevent information, but I think the bulk of us can sift through quite a bit of data. Besides, how do you know that the data is irrelevent?
My personality is one that prefers to be inundated with copious raw data. I much prefer to do my own thinking, especially when I am asked to give a sincere opinion.
Just a thought...
EVP
How does one get a hater to stop hating?
I can be reached at evillageprowler@gmail.com
<< <i>Don't you think your own karma >>
What if you aren't Buddhist?
Seriously though, whatever you think is best, do. I think it's been said before, that if you have to ask the question, the answer (in your own heart) is probably that you should disclose it.
Speaking of the ANACS option as a good way to go for a reputable, professional evaluation of the coin - I had a 1885 V-Nickel PCGS VF35 that I thought should have been graded XF40, so I cracked it out and sent it to ANACS, it came back AU Details cleaned, net XF40. So what grade is this coin?
Charlie
I sent an e-mail to the dealer I bought it from. They blew me off.
I am going to send it to ANACS. If there is a problem, they'll put it on the holder. If there isn't a problem, they won't. I am ready to sell this coin, so my primary purpose is to get it into a more acceptable holder for sale. If it really has a problem, I would not feel good about selling this coin to someone without letting them know about it.
I do feel it is my responsibility to find out exactly what is wrong with the coin before I sell it. I am not a dealer and I know I definitely want to know if a coin I'm buying has a problem.
You are obviously a very thoughtful person who is concerned about dealing fairly with others -- i.e. you've got a conscience.
As long as you can sleep soundly at night because you feel comfortable with your numismatic transactions, then that should be your moral rudder on how to conduct business.
By the way, what type of coin are you talking about ??
Stuart
Collect 18th & 19th Century US Type Coins, Silver Dollars, $20 Gold Double Eagles and World Crowns & Talers with High Eye Appeal
"Luck is what happens when Preparation meets Opportunity"
<< <i>
<< <i>Don't you think your own karma >>
What if you aren't Buddhist?
Hahahaha! Toi khong phai la nguoi mang dao phat! Toi luon co quan niem rang chung ta luon lam nhung viec ma chung ta nghi do la mot viec dung dang.
" I'm not a Budhist! I was merely saying to do what's right because it's the right thing to do.
Rgrds
TP
Coin's for sale/trade.
Tom Pilitowski
US Rare Coin Investments
800-624-1870
<< <i>I don't think you have any obligation to tell them it was bagged by another service.
However, if they ask the question....you of course need to give a truthful answer.
>>
I agree with this statement.
WNC Coins, LLC
1987-C Hendersonville Road
Asheville, NC 28803
wnccoins.com
Find out what is wrong with the coin. Or, more accurately, find out what a few of the experts think might be wrong with the coin. Then, if you truly disagree with that opinion, then I don't think you are obligated to volunteer it. But, if you reasonably believe that the coin really does have that problem, then you would probably enjoy yourself more if you volunteered the disclosure.
I know of a few mainstream dealers who, even when selling a coin in a mainstream holder, will not hesitate to disclose what they feel is the problem with the coin. Of course, they may not shout it from the rooftop. But, they will certainly give some indication as to the coin's problems. Of course, I know more dealers who would only volunteer disclosure if the coin weren't in a top-tier slab. It's a truism in today's market that the holder carries value!
EVP
How does one get a hater to stop hating?
I can be reached at evillageprowler@gmail.com
However....it really is just an opinion. Just recently I sent a seated dime to ANACS that came back "AU details..scratched...net EF40." I really felt the scratch was extremely inconsequential and not a detractor to the value in any way.... which is why I bought the coin raw. So I cracked it out and sent it to NGC where it came back AU53.
My opinion is that the scratch is inconsequential and might more appropriately be deeded "wear." NGC shares this opinion. ANACS doesn't share this opinion.
If your opinion is that the coin has problems....then I would share that opinion. It's a given that for any older coin there will be at least three or four legitimate opinions that could be held by knowledgeable dealers and collectors.
Yea, verily.
You paid PCGS for their professional opinion on the coin. Their opinion on that day was that the coin did not meet their standards for encapsulation. You could shop it around to other servicdes and get other opinions.
You didn't get a body bag, but instead got a DNC. The coin is still in the SEGS holder. Since PCGS doesn't bother to state why they won't grade it ( I guess they lost interest in doing that ) you really didn't get what you paid for, which was their opinion.
You do not know the provenance of this coin. It may have been in NGC, ACG, or even PCGS holders before.
I would list it in the SEGS holder open at 1 cent with no reserve and not mention the PCGS opinion, since you don't even know what it is.
There is a market for SEGS coins and those people may or may not care what PCGS's opinion of the coin is.
I've had raw coins BB'd that I've sold on eBay as BB'd and delivered them in the BB, and have taken a loss doing so. I wrote it off as an educational experience. On those at least I knew what the problem was (cleaned/whizzed, scratched, damaged, etc.)
You bought a coin in a SEGS holder so list it as SEGS and let the SEGS buyers determine it's worth.
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