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Repair marks on Franklin dies.

I have a couple of Frankies which have very small scratch marks, to small for cleaning marks, like in the area of the last digit of the date and also radiating out from In God....These lines appear as though that someone at the mint was repairing the dies.....has anyone else seen this on their Frankies...

Comments

  • JRoccoJRocco Posts: 14,277 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Good morning dlimb2, Can you get a pic posted to show what you mean?
    Some coins are just plain "Interesting"
  • Howdy JRocco and good morning to you...let me see if I can get it on a scanner.....and see what it will look like...and I will post it back.
  • JRocco, here ya go.
  • JRoccoJRocco Posts: 14,277 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Tough to tell from the scans dlimb2, but to me it looks like the effects of a LDS to VLDS strike. It does not look like a clash or a repaired die to me. Hopefully someone else will chime in who might have seen this before.
    Some coins are just plain "Interesting"
  • FC57CoinsFC57Coins Posts: 9,140
    Can't tell from the pictures - I've never seen anything like this other than possibly die polish marks. One thing though - the first sense that I got when I saw that picture is that the coin may have been cleaned. But that could just be the picture.
  • FC57CoinsFC57Coins Posts: 9,140
    Dlimb2 - As I can't see my pm's from work - I'll get a hold of you later and chat with you about this coin.

    Frank image
  • Alright Frank, have a good day at work and we will talk later.
  • ShamikaShamika Posts: 18,781 ✭✭✭✭
    Looks like die polish around the date, but around IN GOD is strange.
    Buyer and seller of vintage coin boards!
  • Here are the lines maged 200x's.....
  • FC57CoinsFC57Coins Posts: 9,140
  • FC57CoinsFC57Coins Posts: 9,140
    Those could be die polish marks, more likely though - they might be whizzing marks.
  • Cam40Cam40 Posts: 8,146
    The horizonal lines deep in the background are flow lines.
    The diagonal lines are die polish lines
    The white looking horizonal lines are hairlines from a cleaning.
    IMO
  • JRoccoJRocco Posts: 14,277 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Hi dlimb2, polish marks for sure.
    Some coins are just plain "Interesting"
  • JRocco, that is what I am thinking...they are real fine...if it were lines from cleaning, they would be bigger....they are real fine and only can be seen at a certain angle...I thought it had been cleaned at first, but now I dont think so.
  • If these are polish marks and not whizzing do they take off in the grading?
  • Another thing about this coin is that the luster is great and when you turn it in a certain way it is the only way you will see these faint lines, other wise you can not see it.
  • Here is a picture of one of the coins...reworked I think this makes it a solid yes.
  • Kinda look like polish lines - hope that's what they are - to answer your question - generally I don't think they take off for polish lines unless you're talking PL coins
  • Frank don't you see something else?
  • You see that V shaped object...That is the tail end of a 5...Look to your left that is a remanant from another number.
  • Cam40Cam40 Posts: 8,146
    I think that is the affect of die errosion really.
    The reason the dies are polished is to get more life out of the dies, and to give a more uniform strike.
    To see what a coin looks like made from unkept dies, unkept meaning not polished when needed,look at alot of 1982 and `83 nickels for example. The fields are sometimes distorted and otherwise not smooth or show very uniform flowlines, that would be a sign of `healthy` dies.

    Again the ridgey surface of the fields in some areas could be from late die state, or deteriorating dies.
    Sometimes you see heavy die polish lines and are often mistaken for scratches from a post-strike cleaning.

    Three very different lines to be aware of.
    1) Flowlines= naturally ocurring
    2) Die polish lines= pre-strike `mint-made lines, very acceptable
    3) Hairlines= post-strike cleaning causes this one, very bad and not acceptable.



  • JRoccoJRocco Posts: 14,277 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I think cam parked parallel on that response. His analysis was spot on. If I can find an example dlimb2 I will try to get a pic up here.
    Some coins are just plain "Interesting"
  • Cam I believe you are right...just as you state...the die was in bad condition from looking at the letters on this coin...what the mint did was polish the die all around the numbers and those are the lines I am seeing...they are very fine in nature and could not be from a cleaning, yet they are visible but faint and do not effect the surface of the coin for there are no gouges...the coin is beautiful other than those polished marks...its perfect.
  • Cam40Cam40 Posts: 8,146
    also worth noting is die polish lines always show up on the coin as raised lines.
    very very hard to see sometimes especially to the untrained eye.
    Bad ol` hairlines are grooves or valeys into the surface of the coin.
    Flowlines however are somewhat both ridges and valleys. Together they form the surface
    of the coin. These lines caused by the metal flow range in various sizes depending on the
    state of the dies. Very new dies strike proof or prooflike coins and as the dies wear the flowlines
    seen begin to get more and more visible to the naked eye.
    Later die state coins have huge flow lines or more gaps in the lines that form.
    Start looking at coins to notice about what stage the dies were that struck the coin.
    I like to pick out some of those new pennies with PL fields. You just know those were
    struck on brand new dies.
    Some coins struck on late die state dies can have a nice look also. The luster, or cartwheel
    effect seems to increase as the dies become more worn.
  • Well Cam, let me tell you, these two coins I have presented on this thread are knockouts...both of them...almost totally flawless...I wish I could get a full picture of them.
  • Cam, what you are saying is the the larger the flow lines the more course the field appears...and the greater the cartwheel....flow lines are tight in proofs thats what gives them the glass polished look...
  • Cam40Cam40 Posts: 8,146
    suffice it to say, flowlines have alot to do with that cartwheel effect seen on some coins.
    i guess at some point there are diminishing returns.
    from deteriorating dies the cartwheel effect may become distorted as less uniformity
    of metal flow occurs so would the visual affect of the luster or cartwheel effect.

    saying the late die state coin has `more` luster than an ealier die state coin may be misleading.
    it may seem so but, to say it is, may not be entirely true.

    `more` luster could just mean a different looking kind of luster.
    know what i mean?

    guess it depends on what you think more means when viewing luster on a coin.
  • Cam40Cam40 Posts: 8,146
    anyway, die state, flowlines and luster all go hand in hand.
    they.re all connected to one another in the sense of what we see on the coins surface.

  • ttt
  • foodudefoodude Posts: 3,568 ✭✭✭
    dlimb2,

    Bring the coins to the Lemont show tomorrow, and I'll take a look at them.

    Greg
    Greg Allen Coins, LLC Show Schedule: https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/573044/our-show-schedule-updated-10-2-16 Authorized dealer for NGC, PCGS, CAC, and QA. Member of PNG, RTT (Founding Platinum Member), FUN, MSNS, and NCBA (formerly ICTA); Life Member of ANA and CSNS. NCBA Board member. "GA3" on CCE.

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