The Best Modern/Limited Set Ever! Opinions welcome

TheRoach

Alright, here it is. The 2001 Titanium Football set is one of the most attractive and most limited sets of all time! When you break it down, the rookies are limited to only 75 copies - period! Each RC has a nice game used patch from that particular player. From what I can see, most of the patches are usually multi-colored as well.

The cards are printed on really thick card stock and have a cool, holographic mirror board front that helps make the swatch stand out more so. 75 total copies of each rookie!!! That is unbelievable to me. I am surprised that this set is not flying off the charts already. They may be lacking a autograph, but the fact that you can patiently snatch up a small percentage of any particular rookie on Ebay, makes this set even cooler.

The rookie checklist is just as amazing. The set has Michael Vick ( I heard he is going to be good ), Ladanlian Tomlinson, Deuce McCallister, Steve Smith, Chad Johnson, Rudi Johnson, Santana Moss, Anthony Thomas, Drew Brees, Quincy Carter, Michael Bennett, Travis Henry, Chris Chambers, Justin McCariens, and Marcell Shipp to name a few.

I feel like a Pacific spokesman right about now, but I am just trying to convince others to see how amazing this set is in terms of scarcity. The rookies were seeded like 1 in 5 boxes. Most of the rookies sell for close to book or even over book depending on the swatch colors.

I owned 2 Michael Vick rookies from this set about 2 years ago and sold them for about $225 a piece. I regret that today because even though he still books at $250, when one surfaces, it goes for around $500-$600.

If you like football, check out the set. It has TONS of potential from a investment standpoint. I think ALL OF THE ROOKIES from this set will take off one day regardless of who they are. It is just too limited.


TheRoach

schr1st

It certainly is a nice set, but sadly it has the "Pacific Taint" to it. Pacific made some of the nicest sets of the 90's, and certainly were innovators when it came to inserts, but collectors seem to have turned their back on their cards, especially since they had their "going out of business sale" and dumped all of their formerly high-value inserts to TREET or whomever makes up those "Guaranteed $100 value" retail packs.

TheRoach

<< <i>It certainly is a nice set, but sadly it has the "Pacific Taint" to it. Pacific made some of the nicest sets of the 90's, and certainly were innovators when it came to inserts, but collectors seem to have turned their back on their cards, especially since they had their "going out of business sale" and dumped all of their formerly high-value inserts to TREET or whomever makes up those "Guaranteed $100 value" retail packs. >>



I can't argue there. However, these rookies sell really well on Ebay eben in the off season. I'm scooping them up as I can. I expect a big jump one day if this rookie class can keep up the good work!

Thanks for the opinion.


TheRoach

MrRookie

Who cares how much Beckett says these cards "book" for. There are way more than 75 people wanting to complete this set and the cards almost always sell for full book or more. If you happen to have one that two people need to finish their sets...the sky's the limit. These cards are definitely great...produced by Pacific or not, who cares.

TheRoach

Excellent point Mr. Rookie! Supply and demand, right? Some may not consider this set a sleeper, but I do because of the amount of potential it still has.


TheRoach

NickM

In a year, it won't even be listed in the Beckett monthly any more. That's the kiss of death for card prices, because most new collectors won't know a thing about it.

Nick

TheRoach

<< <i>In a year, it won't even be listed in the Beckett monthly any more. That's the kiss of death for card prices, because most new collectors won't know a thing about it.

Nick >>



And I suppose the 2001 Bowman Chrome Albert Pujols won't be either, huh? What's your angle on this? This set will forever be listed in the Beckett as far as I can see. Unless of course you are saying that it won't be listed because of the scarcity? Now that would make sense, but I still doubt it. It's too good of a set.


TheRoach

KallMaloneSay

I'll tell one of the Beckett pricing reps to watch some of these auctions, they should all have up arrows in the next few months if they are really selling that strong. Thanks for the heads up and I remember there being only 75 of each, but I didn't even know that they had multi colored patches on them. Sweet!
Jason

ctsoxfan

I really didn't know much about this set until now, and I think it's a valid point that this set isn't regarded as highly because it was a Pacific product. Nice or not, their products have a "second-class" reputation because of the reasons mentioned, but I agree that this set sounds different than their usual junk. The only place I slightly disagree is on the rookie class. 2001, other than Vick (and maybe Ladanian) is somewhat weak in my opinion. A lot of the guys listed have already lost their positions, or are fighting for them (Carter, Brees, Thomas). Still, I will keep an eye on these, to see if your forecast is correct.

KallMaloneSay

other than Vick (and maybe Ladanian) is somewhat weak in my opinion

Yikes, so Ladanian and Deuce McAllister are chopped liver? You must have some high standards for running backs, I guess if they don't have a 2000 yard season then they're in the same class as Blair Thomas and Curtis Enis. I think that is one of the best rookie classes ever.

TheRoach

<< <i>other than Vick (and maybe Ladanian) is somewhat weak in my opinion

Yikes, so Ladanian and Deuce McAllister are chopped liver? You must have some high standards for running backs, I guess if they don't have a 2000 yard season then they're in the same class as Blair Thomas and Curtis Enis. I think that is one of the best rookie classes ever. >>



You said it Jason! What are you looking at Soxfan? You said Vick and "maybe" Tomlinson, but you forgot Chad Johnson- awesome Pro Bowl receiver for the Bengals, Steve Smith - electrifying wide receiver for the Panthers, Travis Henry - may lose his job to MCGahee, but he has averaged close to 1,300 yards a year, Santana Moss - exploded this year for the Jets, Reggie Wayne - deep threat for Peyton Manning who had a phenomenal year!, and Michael Bennett - other than an injury, has shown he can rush for about 1,400 yards a year I'm sure.

I don't know if you watch football that much, but I agree with Jason. This is one of the better classes in awhile. Jason mentioned Deuce McCallister. What does that gut have to do to convince you he is good? He had 9 straight 100 yard games last year, and rushed for around 1,400-1,500 yards if I could remember.

Jason - I currently own 3 Steve Smith's ( went up to $60 in last month's Beckett ), 1 Chad Johnson, 1 Anthony Thomas, 1 Reggie Wayne, and 1 Justin McCariens ( Titans, but was traded to Jets in offseason ). These will heat up even more as these players progress.


TheRoach

Gemmy10

Only 500 sets and at least 100 have been broken up. IMHO in years to come the empty box all by itself will be a sleeper.

koby

Gemmy,

That is one cool box. Are the boxes ever on sale without the cards? Do you know whether PSA holders fit horizontally in the box if you took everything out?

Koby

Gemmy10

koby,

I saw an empty box on eBay sell as high as $400 and as low as $200. PSA cards don't fit in BUT the center of the box is a foamy material covered in velvet which compartmentalizes (gee is that a word? LOL) the box. The compartments can be easily cutout with an exacto knife and the PSA cards would fit but not sure how many it would hold.

joestalin

Im not sure how everyone can talk about pacific and limited without mentioning perhaps the all
time most limited set......2002 private stock. Pacific took it one step further numbering each rookie
card to the guys jersey number!!! Half the offensive players you won't even see..Harrington
numbered to 8 Carr to 7. I think you got one rookie per box and the boxes were kinda
expensive but those aren't bad odds for a chance at a rare card.

If Edwin Jackson, Rickie Weeks and Delmon Young turn out to be studs look for their leaf limited
update auto rookie cards, numbered to just 99, to go thorugh the roof. 99 is just enough to make
them findable, yet very very rare.

Kevin

kr580

you guys forgot Barlow! one of the best, if not THE best, up-and-coming RB's in the NFL.

MrRookie

once again gemmy tries to derail the train with his pointless babble about overproduced yankee collectibles

ctsoxfan

I agree...this is not a thread about Yankee stuff.

KMS and Roach, you guys make good points about the 2001 rookies. I guess I was thinking primarily about the QB's other than Vick who are not lighting the league on fire, and forgot about Deuce completely. I stand corrected on my view of that class.

Gemmy10

<<once again gemmy tries to derail the train with his pointless babble about overproduced yankee collectibles>>

Thread Title: The Best Modern/Limited Set Ever! Opinions welcome

<< agree...this is not a thread about Yankee stuff>>

Just because Upper Deck has chosen not to make a Boston Master Collection for an inferior team does not mean you should criticize what others collect. Once again a jealous and perennial hurting Red Sox fan takes out his/her frustration on an innocent Yankee fan. Remember the Alamo! Remember the Dent!! Remember the Boone!!! Remember the A-Rod!!!! Ouch. Ouch. Ouch. LOL

mrchris74

I think any assessment of the class of 2001 depends in large part on what you think of Vick. I think LT is the best rb in a long time but if he doesn't get out of san diego he'll never draw much interest. (Unless they draft Eli Manning and start winning super bowls). Thomas, Brees and Carter are already busts. The rest of them are mediocre IMO, tho I like Rudi Johnson this year.

So we're left with just Vick. But as long as you don't think its possible to be the greatest athlete ever and also an average quarterback (as I do), then I guess its still a solid class.

I'm collecting 01 Pros & Prospects, so I like the class overall, I just don't think its 1989.

Chris

P.S. Kevan Barlow! WTF???

TheRoach

<< <i>I think any assessment of the class of 2001 depends in large part on what you think of Vick. I think LT is the best rb in a long time but if he doesn't get out of san diego he'll never draw much interest. (Unless they draft Eli Manning and start winning super bowls). Thomas, Brees and Carter are already busts. The rest of them are mediocre IMO, tho I like Rudi Johnson this year.

So we're left with just Vick. But as long as you don't think its possible to be the greatest athlete ever and also an average quarterback (as I do), then I guess its still a solid class.

I'm collecting 01 Pros & Prospects, so I like the class overall, I just don't think its 1989.

Chris

P.S. Kevan Barlow! WTF??? >>



I don't think anyone ever compared this class to the Class of '89. But how can you say that Deuce McCallister is mediocre? Chad Johnson, WR, Bengals makes the Pro Bowl and he is mediocre? Steve Smith of Carolina - mediocre? The jury is still out on Barlow in my opinion, but after a full season in 2004, I'd venture to say that he will be ok.

So even if you just count Vick and Tomlinson ( which is ridiculous ), you would have a class that produced one of the best QB and RB in the league right now. How many other draft classes in the last 10 years could boast that?

Geez, some of you people are some tough critics. I may agree that Brees and Carter are busts, but I may want to see Anthony Thomas one more year with a new coach and Rex Grossman at the reigns. He actually looked ok last year in a part time role. carter took the Cowboys to the Playoffs and you guys have given up?


TheRoach

ctsoxfan

<< <i>carter took the Cowboys to the Playoffs and you guys have given up? >>



Well, Parcells apparently has...and, the receivers mentioned (Johnson and Smith) had decent years, but still get a big "who cares?" from the hobby world. Still, I like Ladanian and Deuce along with Vick, but you have to hope Vick rebounds from his injury this season (he still feels pain in the leg, and if he can't run well, his stock will drop dramatically).

mrchris74

Yes, Carter is finished. Steve Smith is a speed guy and not much more. And I thought Chad Johnson made the pro bowl based on the Bengals improvement last year. I could be wrong on him though, since I haven't seen him play much.

I guess I'm looking at the long view, meaning who among them is HOF-bound. Deuce is a nice rb but he isn't going to put up HOF numbers for long. Not given his injury history, not on turf, and especially not for the saints. Furthermore in just 2 seasons I already feel comfortable eliminating the following rookies from HOF contention: Weinke, Heupel, Brees, Buckhalter, Bennet, Morgan, Freddie Mitchell.

The jury is still out on the following: Tuiasosopo, T. Hasselbeck, A Thomas, Gardner, Chad Johnson, Terrell, Robinson, Chambers, et al... A large group of receivers, maybe one or two will pan out (this is a good place to mention Todd Heap). But again I say we are left with LT & Vick as potential HOFers, with maybe one surprise from the group above. As for Mike Vick, consider this: In his 5 years *college & pro* he is 508 of 947 (53.6%) for 7380 yards with 42 tds. Compare this to Peyton Manning's first TWO pro seasons: 644 of 1080 (59.6%) for 7716 and 51 TDs. Vick is a thrill, but then, so is a bottle of Mad Dog 20/20. And nobody thinks Mad Dog is good wine...

My problem with this class is there are no defensive standouts, just a lot of injury-prone skill position types. Compare this class to 2000: Arrington, Burress, Urlacher, Shaun Alexander, Jamal Lewis, Pennington, Brady, D. Jackson, Coles, maybe even Delhomme all have a shot. And I could probably make the same case for '98 and '99. Interested in what you guys think.

Chris

NickM

<< In a year, it won't even be listed in the Beckett monthly any more. That's the kiss of death for card prices, because most new collectors won't know a thing about it.

Nick >>



And I suppose the 2001 Bowman Chrome Albert Pujols won't be either, huh? What's your angle on this? This set will forever be listed in the Beckett as far as I can see. Unless of course you are saying that it won't be listed because of the scarcity? Now that would make sense, but I still doubt it. It's too good of a set.


TheRoach

Roach - review sometime what Beckett keeps and doesn't keep in the magazines. Pacific products are usually the first to go from a year. In baseball and football, where they no longer make any sets (and therefore can't influence Beckett's decision with their advertising dollars), look for the vast majority, if not all, of the Pacific products listed to be dropped within 6 months.
One new Gridiron Kings/Timelines/Leaf Limited type product can wipe out 2 pages of existing listings. Combine the financial incentive for Beckett with the widespread reputation of Pacific as junk (based in part on their 4 or 5 different serial numbered parallels of each card in many sets and the game jersey cards of players no one remembers). Pacific products are soon to be delisted, and then will drop in price.
I think this set provides a high value-to-price ratio now. I also think it will get higher later, as its delisting drops it off the radar screen for most collectors.

Nick

TheRoach

<< <i>Yes, Carter is finished. Steve Smith is a speed guy and not much more. And I thought Chad Johnson made the pro bowl based on the Bengals improvement last year. I could be wrong on him though, since I haven't seen him play much.

I guess I'm looking at the long view, meaning who among them is HOF-bound. Deuce is a nice rb but he isn't going to put up HOF numbers for long. Not given his injury history, not on turf, and especially not for the saints. Furthermore in just 2 seasons I already feel comfortable eliminating the following rookies from HOF contention: Weinke, Heupel, Brees, Buckhalter, Bennet, Morgan, Freddie Mitchell.

The jury is still out on the following: Tuiasosopo, T. Hasselbeck, A Thomas, Gardner, Chad Johnson, Terrell, Robinson, Chambers, et al... A large group of receivers, maybe one or two will pan out (this is a good place to mention Todd Heap). But again I say we are left with LT & Vick as potential HOFers, with maybe one surprise from the group above. As for Mike Vick, consider this: In his 5 years *college & pro* he is 508 of 947 (53.6%) for 7380 yards with 42 tds. Compare this to Peyton Manning's first TWO pro seasons: 644 of 1080 (59.6%) for 7716 and 51 TDs. Vick is a thrill, but then, so is a bottle of Mad Dog 20/20. And nobody thinks Mad Dog is good wine...

My problem with this class is there are no defensive standouts, just a lot of injury-prone skill position types. Compare this class to 2000: Arrington, Burress, Urlacher, Shaun Alexander, Jamal Lewis, Pennington, Brady, D. Jackson, Coles, maybe even Delhomme all have a shot. And I could probably make the same case for '98 and '99. Interested in what you guys think.

Chris >>




MD 20/20. Now that is a blast from the past. Only the Strawberry/Bananna tasted ok throwing up. LOL. That stuff was the $hit when I was in grade school. Maybe a little Wild Irish Rose if we wanted something different.

Anyway, I think we are critiquing this class of rookies too much. If we expected more than 2-3 players each year to go onto the Hall of Fame down the road, the Hall would be overcrowded. Not every draft class has a representative in the Hall from my knowledge. If 2 people make it in from any particular class, that would be pretty good.

You have to be kidding about the jury not being out on Tim Hasselbeck!! You are wrong there. The jury has been out for quite some time and they found him guilty of sucking! He has a game last year that was so bad that they couldn't even give him a lower passing rating then they did because there is a point when it can't go any lower. He sucks for sure.

Chad Johnson will be very good for quite some time. Trust me. Steve Smith is not just fast. He has great hands and has single handedly won some big games for the Panthers. He's only like 24 years old also. He has a bright future.

I don't think that Quincy Carter is really good at this point, but I don't think that Drew Henson will be the almighty successor either. He's older and a big puss.

I do like that Class of 2000 with Alexander, Brady, Pennington, Lewis, etc.. I'm not that high on Urlacher. way over-rated in my opinion. I live in Chicago and watch every Bears game. We were desperate for a star and they used him. His first year was awesome, but he can't fight off a block now, and he misreads plays quite a bit. Just another good player, that's all.

I am interested to see the Football Beckett in 6 months and miss out on all of the Pacific pricing. that is never going to happen. These new sets have numerous inserts upon the initial listing, but when they need room in the pricing section, they condense those sets into the thicker, bi-monthly? price guide.

TheRoach

mrchris74

Expecting 2 or 3 is about right, IMO. I count 28 HOF rookies in the 1970s. With highs of 5 in 1972 and 6 in 1973 (undervalued set?) and a low of one in 1974. There were none in 1980, but the eleven year average is still 2.5, and there may be a few more that get in from these years. I didn't count the 80s since there are so many that may yet get in from that decade.

So when you ask what is the best modern set, I'd have to look at the potential HOF rookie count - 2001 looks a lot more like 1974 than it does 1972. So lets go year by year:

Potential HOFers
1993: Bettis, Bledsoe, Brunell, Strahan [ewww]
1994: Faulk, Isaac Bruce
1995: McNair, Sapp, Derrick Brooks, Ty Law, Curtis Martin
1996: Milloy, Terell Owens, Simeon Rice, Ray Lewis, Harrison, Moulds, Eddie George, Z Thomas, Alstott
1997: Corey Dillon, Tony Gonzalez, Plummer [ha ha ha]
1998: Manning, 10 Game Taylor, Moss, Hines Ward, Charles Woodson
1999: Culpepper, Champ Bailey, McNabb, Boston, Holt, Ricky Williams
2000: Brady, Lewis, Urlacher and the others I mentioned before
2001: Vick, McAllister, LT
2002-3: probably too early to tell

So for rookie crop, 1996 looks good: Owens, Lewis and Harrison are on their way, maybe one of the others gets in too. 1998 and 2000 also look good to me. My question is, what are the best sets from these years?

Chris

Lothar52

pacific went under??? when was this?? when was there last year?

loth

TheRoach

<< <i>Expecting 2 or 3 is about right, IMO. I count 28 HOF rookies in the 1970s. With highs of 5 in 1972 and 6 in 1973 (undervalued set?) and a low of one in 1974. There were none in 1980, but the eleven year average is still 2.5, and there may be a few more that get in from these years. I didn't count the 80s since there are so many that may yet get in from that decade.

So when you ask what is the best modern set, I'd have to look at the potential HOF rookie count - 2001 looks a lot more like 1974 than it does 1972. So lets go year by year:

Potential HOFers
1993: Bettis, Bledsoe, Brunell, Strahan [ewww]
1994: Faulk, Isaac Bruce
1995: McNair, Sapp, Derrick Brooks, Ty Law, Curtis Martin
1996: Milloy, Terell Owens, Simeon Rice, Ray Lewis, Harrison, Moulds, Eddie George, Z Thomas, Alstott
1997: Corey Dillon, Tony Gonzalez, Plummer [ha ha ha]
1998: Manning, 10 Game Taylor, Moss, Hines Ward, Charles Woodson
1999: Culpepper, Champ Bailey, McNabb, Boston, Holt, Ricky Williams
2000: Brady, Lewis, Urlacher and the others I mentioned before
2001: Vick, McAllister, LT
2002-3: probably too early to tell

So for rookie crop, 1996 looks good: Owens, Lewis and Harrison are on their way, maybe one of the others gets in too. 1998 and 2000 also look good to me. My question is, what are the best sets from these years?

Chris >>




I am sorry Chris, but I just have a hard time agreeing with some of your picks. You shun alot of the guys in the 2001 set, but you list the following guys that I can say have very little shot at the Hall unless they put up some HUGE numbers over the next 5-6 years.

Brunell
Sapp
Lawyer Milloy
Eddie George ( struggling lately )
Zach Thomas
Mike Alstott
Eric Moulds ( maybe, but he hasn't been the same the last couple of years )
Corey Dillon ( he needs some big numbers on a better team B4 I pencil him in )
Fred Taylor ( needs alot more time and probably won't get it )

I know you said potentially these guys could make it, but I think you are stretching it on a few of these guys. Zach Thomas? C'mon!

Boy I like this debate! Oh wait - Jake Plummer? Heck, Jake "The Snake" from the old WWF has a better shot at getting into the HOF. LOL.



TheRoach

mrchris74

Sapp is in, Brunell has hope if the Skins get better, Dillon still has a lot of carries in him. I put Alstott on there thinking he may get into the hall the same way he gets into the pro bowl every year (as a fb, which he isn't). You can throw the others out if you like (now that I think about it, why did I put Zack Thomas on there? lol), but I still think 2 or three of those classes stack up better than 2001. Remember, I am on record as saying Vick and McAllister won't make it.

As for sets, I'm not sure rarity really matters that much. Look at the Bowman vs Topps Mantle "rookie". Collectability is often more important than scarcity. I think SP is probably the best bet in most of these years, they're usually rare enough but also among the most popular. What do you think?

Chris

ctsoxfan

<< <i>Collectability is often more important than scarcity. >>



Which is why most people want the more "available" SP Authentic RC, rather than anything produced by Pacific, more limited or not.



<< <i>Dillon still has a lot of carries in him. >>



If he stops whining, that is. Even so, no way he is a HOF caliber back.




<< <i>Remember, I am on record as saying Vick and McAllister won't make it. >>



I agree about Vick. He has lots of talent, but it is way too early too tell if he can turn that into HOF type numbers. Especially on a bad team, which the Falcons are likely to be for a while.

mrchris74

Dillon already has 8,000 yards. If he puts in 4 or 5 good years with oakland (or whomever), he'll be at 13,000 yards. That puts him in the top 5 all-time, and is more than several HOFers including Jim Brown, Dorsett, Marcus Allen, (just 250 shy of Dickerson). I don't like the guy either but if he stays healthy I don't see how he misses the HOF.

Chris

Tabe

<< <i>pacific went under??? when was this?? when was there last year?

loth >>


It hasn't happened. They quit doing anything other than hockey, but they're still around.

Tabe
www.tabe.nu

AlanAllen

Pacific still does CFL football, but their last NFL football set was 2002.

Joe

Clementefan

I have to go with the 2001 Playoff Contenders Set. So many limited cards and there can be only 10 complete sets put together due to the limited Round Number Gold cards based on draft round. This set has an awsome list of limited Rookie Autographs and one of the best Rookie classes(Vick, Tomlinson, McCallister, Bennett, Henry, Feeley, Bell, Rudi Johnson, Chad Johnson,Thomas,Davis,Boo Williams,Anthony Carter,Archuleta,Hampton, just to name a few) also have 71 Legends/HOF Signatures(don't think that they will be able to do that again).