Hunting 1909vdb Matte Proof Lincolns -- another one -- what is the board consensus?

DMWJR

Russ

I'd say that it might possibly maybe could be one.

Russ, NCNE

nankraut

Man...I just don't know

DMWJR

Russ, you crack me up!

This is the best potential MPL discovery currently on the board!!!! It recently sold as a Mint State for $67, but not to me, dammit!

LanLord

It sure has a significant rim on it, more so than any 09 I have ever seen before.

There are some pretty sharp copper people on this board, I would hope someone would pipe in with an opinion.

Merc

I say no. I have seen several 1909 business strikes with the broad rims. It needs the matte fields and extreem detail in Lincolns beard and hair. This one lacts the detail of a matte proof.

mdwoods

Send it to PCGS, they can and will tell you.

STEWARTBLAYNUMIS

Doug;

Sorry but 100% NO Fu#$*& Way.The coin has mint state luster.The rims you see are not fully squared.no matte proof surfaces,nor are they satiny and no die polish lines in front of Lincoln's beard.

Stewart

merz2

merc
You don't see the detail ?
Stewart
That is an obvious Obv Die 1,look at the polished nose.

DMWJR

As always, I wish I had a better picture with more detail, but that won't be happening until the purchaser of this coin gets it, examines it, and takes pictures of the right areas!!!! Sounds like a lot of fun to be had for $67.

I'm just adding to the 1909vdb conspiracy currently on the boards. This one is closer than the other two IMO. An "in-hand" inspection would make it positive in my opinion. WILL THE REAL VDB MPL, PLEASE STAND UP!!!!

merz2

I will plead guilty.Since I can't post pics,I asked Doug to post this pic of a coin I picked up for $67.I see it as a Matte proof.IMHO it has the Obv Die 1 that Steve spoke of last nigh,that is recognized by most people.The polished nose.

Steve

OK everyone, here's my take on this. I do not believe that anyone can determine if a particular 1909VDB Lincoln cent is a matte proof or a business strike just from a scan picture. You need to view the coin in person with a 10X glass. There were only 420 issued and probably less than 200 are still around. They can suddenly show up in auctions, but realistically, the odds of this one being a matte proof is slim IMHO. Now, as far as I know, (and Stewart or Doug or someone with lots of experience handling this coin may have better info)the only coins that PCGS, NGC or ANACS have slabbed are coins that have the following 3 diagnostics.

On the obverse, die polish on front of and on top of nose.
On the obverse, die scratch from back of Lincoln's coat going into field below the right leg of the "R" of liberty

On the reverse, die chip to the right of "M" in unum.
All this + all the obvious requirements to be a proof coin.

Also, the same OBVERSE die used on the 1909vdb matte proof was also used on some of the 1909 matte proof coins without the VDB. That means it is critical that the REVERSE diagnostic be present on any legitimate 1909vdb matte proof Lincoln cent.

In 1983 an ANA authenticator, Leonard Albrecht wrote a detail piece(with many pictures) about the Lincoln matte proof cents including all known diagnostics. In 1996 Kevin Flynn wrote some of his theories concerning mintages and diagnostics. Obviously, no one knows for sure, but the rationale provided by the US Mint supports the issue of 420 pieces and 1 obverse die and 1 reverse die used for the 1909vdb matte proof cent. I sent Doug a copy of the Albrecht article and perhaps he can post it if someone is interested. It would be great if the diagnostic pictures show up on scans.

I truly hope Don has plucked a $10,000+ coin out of the auction. It sure looks like a 65RD from the picture. But, don't get your hopes too high until you actually see the diagnostics mentioned above.

Steve

DMWJR

Steve you are 100% correct. I fell for a raw 1913 MPL several years ago, and won't buy one outside of the plastic anymore. I might take a risk on a $25.00 coin, but I haven't done it since I got burned on the 13.

I do still think that guy that posted in the 1909 vdb thread I started in December or January had the real deal. I never heard back from him, and don't know if he sent it in to ANACS or not. He was able to take close up pics that did show the diagnostics, although I thought the coin had been cleaned. Even blind hogs find an acorn now and then, but I wouldn't want to be a blind hog looking for enough acorns to make a meal, that's for sure!

Shamika

That coin has a pretty severe hit on the reverse "O" in "ONE". That alone makes me suspect that it's a business strike.

merz2

I honestly appreciate all the replies here.As we have all said before,no one can tell grade or attributes positively from a pic.I promise to look it over carefully when it arrives.If I still think it is the Matte Proof I'll send it to PCGS for authentication and grading,Express Service (7) day special.We will all know then.Thanks again for all your opinions !!!

ksteelheader

Don, if you have that coin by Sunday, we could do breakfast and I could take pics and post them here later in the day. Let me know.....Ken

merz2

Ken sounds like a plan to me.I'll let you know.Thanks for the offer.

DMWJR

I would like to see those pics . . .

merz2

I will have Ken post the pics to this thread.

Bellportman

I might have an example of the same coin, several "experts" have told me they don't know what it is!

The coin you have the picture looks like it has the same die markers as mine, there are raised areas that have been described as die rust which would seem impossible with such a short history in production. All who have viewed this coin have agreed they are "raised" areas from pitting in the die.

It has been the way of PCGS and came back bodybagged (Questionable Color/Toning) as MS, NOT proof....

Good Luck!

Russ

<< <i>came back bodybagged (Questionable Color/Toning) as MS, NOT proof.... >>



Did you note it as a proof or a business strike on the submission form? If the latter, than the "MS" on the bodybag doesn't mean anything. If you did note it as a proof, than the MS may - or may not - mean something. It could just be a data entry.

Russ, NCNE

Bellportman

I can't remember what the submission form actually said, it was three years ago. I tend to mark things in such a way to make them (PCGS) tell me what it is.