Need attribution- 1846 Tall Date large cent

rhedden

I acquired a nice 1846 Tall Date cent last fall, and only recently did I notice that it is not the common N12 variety. It could be N13, N14, N16, N23, N24, or N25. Each of these is scarce to rare, so it is worth looking up. The trouble is that these varieties are not so easily distinguished, and I only have the original Newcomb book, which has no pictures and only covers up to N21. Can anyone give me an attribution or at least provide more information on the N23, N24, and N25?

1846talldate

rhedden

Anyone??

Where are all the copper experts hiding?

JadeRareCoin

Hmmmm. This is a tough one. I keep coming back to N-12, but you say that it's not. Do you have a reverse image and a close-up pick of the date (high res, heavy light)?

It could be N-13 or N-14. Is there a horizontal line through the center of the 1 in the date? N-24 is a proof only issue. N-23 and N-25 share the same obverse die as N-13, which is why I asked for the reverse pic.

Late die large cents are about as easy to attribute as 1998 Lincolns. Very tough to do, so don't feel bad.

Dennis

Conder101

N-24 is proof only it isn't a N-24
N-13, 23, and 25 all have the same obverse which has a date reference number of 143586
N-16 has date reference number of 115476
N-14 has date reference number of 146623
N-12 has a reference number of 134425

What I can see from the picture this coin has a reference number of 14xx2x and is most likely a N-12 or N-14. The positioning for the fifth digit is nowhere close to being a 7 or 8. Look for recutting around the base of the 1 or die lines going down to the right below the eye and behind the earlobe. If it has the recutting it is N-14, if it has the lines it is N-12.

rhedden

Thanks for the info. to both of you. I need to put the coin under a microscope and look at the 1 in the date. It is definitely different from the two N12 cents I got at coin shows the past couple of weeks. For one thing, the top of the 1 basically touches the bust on this coin. I doubt that the other two coins I picked up were both misattributed. I will let you know when I figure out what it is.

Conder101

<< <i>For one thing, the top of the 1 basically touches the bust on this coin. >>


If the one almost touches the bust that would make the third digit in the reference number a 4. The one is lower on the N-14 which makes it more likely that your new coin is a N-12 and the other two coins are misattributed. Especially if the other two do NOT have the 1 almost touching the bust.

rhedden

OK, this is all getting confusing... I will post better pics of all three coins as soon as I find the time! The other two coins have the top of the 1 in the date further from the Bust than the one pictured here. One was purchased from CVM, the other from an EAC member. Those two appear to be identical. I suspect that the one I pictured here is N13 or N14, but that may be inconsistent with the date positions you provided. Let's hope it's a new variety!

JadeRareCoin

rhedden,

You may want to email some high quality pics to CVM for attribution. Also, I think Bob Grellman does attributions for $1 or $2 per coin. He wrote the book on the Late Dates.

Regarding the reverse die, are there any rim cuds or die breaks? I still keep coming up with N-12, but if it does not match your known N-12, then I am really confused. If you bought your other N-12 form CVM, then I am 99.9% sure that it is correctly attributed, since Chris is one of the leading experts in the field.

Now I am very curious.....

rhedden

I have posted pics of all three of my 1846 Tall Date coins. After taking a better look at them, I will take close-up photos showing any identifying details. "Tall Date 1" is the original coin posted at the beggining of this message. Both "Tall Date 2" and "Tall Date 3" were attributed as N12 when I bought them, if I remember correctly. "Tall Date 2" was from CVM recently. I am no longer certain that both Tall Date 2 and Tall Date 3 are the same variety, either. The date placement might be slightly different, or it might just be that they are worn slightly differently. Tough to tell. This is going to take a while to sort out. Note that "Tall Date 1" has the base of the 1 high above the denticles, whereas the base of the 1 on the other coins is much closer to the denticles. As for the die markers pointed out by Conder 101, I need to look at the coins under a microscope later to see if they're there. These are circulated coins with a little verdigris, and it hasn't been easy to find die lines or recutting of digits with the 5x loupe I've got handy.


Tall Date 1
Tall Date 2
Tall Date 3

Rittenhouse

1 is N12. 2 and 3 look like N14, but I'd have to see them.

Conder101

From what I see on date placement Tall Date 1 is a N-12 and Tall Dates 2 & 3 are both N-14. On all three coins the fifth position reference is a 2 (left edge of the base of the one is slightly left of the right edge of the dentical) For the Tall Dates this is only true on N-12 and N-14.

For N-12 the date is placed much higher with the one almost touching the bust and the left edge of the base away from the dentical below it. (The 4 also almost touches the curl above it.) Ibelieve I can see the lines at the eye as well. (I'm on a different computer tonight.)

On N-14 the date is placed low away from the bust and curl but with the left base of the one just touching the dentical below it. As I mentioned earlier N-14 has recutting on the base of the 1 and I think I can see some traces of that recutting on Tall Dates 2 & 3.

Without seeing the coins in person those would be my attributions 12, 14, and 14. Both of the previous purchases were misattributed. Late dates are VERY tough to attribute. Fortunately your coins are in pretty nice condition. Trying to do them in VF or lower is often impossible, at least for me.

By the way, dump the Newcomb book and get a copy of Grellman. You will find the attributing MUCH easier.

I see Rittenhouse has posted his opinion while I was writing mine, I'm glad to see that his opinion matches mine. He knows his stuff very well, which makes me feel even more confident on my opinions.

rhedden

I took some very high magnification scans of my three tall date cents today. Here they are.

"Tall Date #2" purchased from CVM is definitely N-14. It has a recut base of the digit 1. It also has a shallow rim break developing between stars 3 and 4 (not shown).

Tall Date #2, base of "1" in date


"Tall Date #3" is probably also N-14, but I am having trouble confirming that because it has some hardened verdigris around the devices. The placement of the "1" in the date is similar to "Tall Date #2" but I can't see the recutting possibly because of the filth adhering to the coin.


Tall Date #3, base of "1" in date


The original coin "Tall Date #1" is another matter entirely. It has some unusual die markers that I'm not sure match N12, N13, N14, or N16. It might be something else. Here are 8 photos that show some of the identifying characteristics. Three that stand out are the die dot next to star 1, the small defect at the rim between stars 10 and 11 (like N-16), and the die crack from the top of the second T in STATES to the rim. Maybe we can get a positive attribution for this now. Do you guys still think it is an N-12? Wish I had the Grellman book handy. I will obtain more photos if someone tells me what to look for.

8 greatly magnified photos of Tall Date #1 die markers

Rittenhouse

N12 and other N14 as previously stated. Get Grellman book.