ACG Complaint - Acrobat File Available

Sequitur

Download here. (right click, save as - 2 MB file *.pdf file)

Plaintiffs:

ASA Accugrade, Inc., a Florida corporation
Alan Hager
Diane Hager

ACG's lawyers:

Bogin, Munns & Munns
Daniel M. Brodersen
2601 Technology Drive
Orlando, FL 32804

Bogin's website.


Three counts

Count I: Conspiracy to Commit Common Law Defamation and to Tortiously Interfere With Advantageous Business Relationships

Count II: Common Law Defamation

Count III: Tortious Interference With Advantageous Business Relationships


Read Paragraph 12. The allegedly "false statements."

docday2003

this has been posted before hasn't it?

Sequitur

If it was, I was not aware. My apologies if that is the case.

ddink

Read Paragraph 9.

JadeRareCoin

Thanks Sequitur.

I like Paragraph 9, where it states "Alan Hager has been in the rare coin industry for over 40 years and, up until the commencement of the defendant's campaign of libel against the Plantiffs, enjoyed a reputation as a virtually unassailable expert in rare coin grading".

Sequitur

I wonder whether ACG's attorneys have committed a Rule 11-type violation for pleading false statements in the complaint.

nwcs

I'm still surprised they didn't name PCGS and NGC for the message boards, and the government for creating the internet. Paragaph 9 is pretty funny.

nalamolly5

i would sue too if i were called a fishwife! whore i could take, but fishwife, never!!!!

nwcs

You're right, paragraph 12 was worth the download all in itself!

Aethelred

They do admit in their complaint that they grade fakes and can't tell the difference!

relayer

I'm glad I never said anything bad about ACG

XpipedreamR

<< <i>Thanks Sequitur.

I like Paragraph 9, where it states "Alan Hager has been in the rare coin industry for over 40 years and, up until the commencement of the defendant's campaign of libel against the Plantiffs, enjoyed a reputation as a virtually unassailable expert in rare coin grading".

>>






My thoughts exactly. This guy ought to write for Saturday Night Live!

nwcs

The list of ebay sellers is quite humorous, too, if you've ever looked at the material those sellers have sold in the past (and perhaps present).

Sequitur

Question: where are the false statements?

nwcs

Perhaps they were contained elsewhere in the document, if you catch my meaning (p.9)

Russ

A very entertaining read, particulary Par. 12. That one's a riot!

A couple terms kept popping in to my head between burts of laughter; "Last gasp", "death throes" and "one foot in the grave, the other on a banana peel."

Russ, NCNE

kranky

I had no idea what to expect from the complaint, but even so I'm pretty surprised at the magnitude of the alleged harm supposedly caused to ACG.

Aethelred

If I made cars and claimed that my cars got 40 MPG and they really only got 20 MPG and then stated that I use a different standard for MPG, I wonder how long I would stay in business?

ACG uses the 1-70 Sheldon scale, but, when called on their gross overgrading (at best), claim that they grade using "a different standard." This is in my opinion outright fraud. Further, they do not make clear that they are using a "different standard" that does not conform with that understood and standardized by the numismatic community as a whole.

BAJJERFAN

Sheesh only $15 K in damages; guess they never lost much bizness then.

Sequitur

Actually, that paragraph likely is meant to plead the jurisdictional threshold for damages -- it states ACG has suffered "well in excess" of $15,000.

Russ

<< <i>Sheesh only $15 K in damages >>



That's just a statutory minimum number.

Russ, NCNE

ElectricEye

I had no idea all of those people named were all "beholden to PCGS". It makes it sound like David Hall branded them all with a hot poker.

Yes, the "screaming fishwife" "raving madwoman" comments are very interesting but it may be very hard to prove otherwise in a court of law.

Line 14, the part about the ACG grading of an coin whose "counterfeit nature was difficult if not impossible to detect" makes it very clear that we need to chip in and buy a copy of The Official Guide to Counterfeit Coins and Detection and send it to Florida. (we need to have it autographed first)

Aethelred

<< <i>Line 14, the part about the ACG grading of an coin whose "counterfeit nature was difficult if not impossible to detect" makes it very clear that we need to chip in and buy a copy of The Official Guide to Counterfeit Coins and Detection and send it to Florida. (we need to have it autographed first) >>



I am sure David Hall would be happy to autograph it!

mrearlygold

Is this guy hager going to sue every person who has commented negatively about his crap?

Didn't he file bankruptcy? What happend there? He hit the lottery so as to pay these lawyers?

Pretty bizarre.

TP

I wonder how much information about this creep ( in my opinion) has been given to the Florida State Attorney's office and the Florida Comptrollers office, US Postal inspectors, FTC, etc etc etc. If not then maybe it should be.

tjkillian

I hope ACG gets laughed out of court. This is their last gasp before they go under.



Tom

mrearlygold

<< <i>I hope ACG gets laughed out of court. This is their last gasp before they go under.



Tom >>



Better still would be a real bright light on these people and then the FLA government making it a mission. They should go away for a while after that.

TP

Aethelred

<< <i>This is their last gasp before they go under. >>



I really hope so!

Bochiman

What I wonder is if this will hit NN as an article or not.
I know I won't see it up here in the Pacific NW's TV or newspaper, but I wonder if it will make mention in the trade rags?

I got into collecting too late and at the tail end of things...so, I knew better than to buy the ACG crap and I have many of those that were sued to thank for that.....

To the people being sued, THANK YOU and I wish you all the best in this.

btw.....are they mainly east coast people?

airplanenut

<< <i>A very entertaining read, particulary Par. 12. That one's a riot!

A couple terms kept popping in to my head between burts of laughter; "Last gasp", "death throes" and "one foot in the grave, the other on a banana peel."

Russ, NCNE >>

OH, yeah! I hadn't heard some of those before... good thing I got this read

And the ironic thing--my law class just covered torts

dpoole

up until the commencement of the defendant's campaign of libel against the Plantiffs, enjoyed a reputation as a virtually unassailable expert in rare coin grading

That's because he'd sue you, if you try to assail.

BAJJERFAN

I wonder if the defense is gonna subpeona HRH?

mrearlygold

<< <i>up until the commencement of the defendant's campaign of libel against the Plantiffs, enjoyed a reputation as a virtually unassailable expert in rare coin grading

That's because he'd sue you, if you try to assail. >>

Bochiman

The funny things have already been said, but I also found the wording interesting on page 4 where it states that Diane Hagar is a law abiding, productive, member of society.....notice it doesn't state that about Alan?
I think that is quite telling as well.

Wasn't he convicted of a felony or something before? I remember hearing something.

People like the hagars need their vileness out of areas where other, decent, people are....such as coins, etc. They need to be sent over to the middle east where their business practices would result in losing their hands at a minimum as part of justice.

cosmicdebris

Paragraph 12 gets on the entertainment scale.

crito

I wonder how long before PCGS board members start getting sued. I see K6AZ's name is already on there.

lava

Thanks's for putting up the complaint. Very interesting. I like the fact that they named names -- not only the alleged wrongdoers, but also the people who took their business elsewhere. The jurisdictional tie to Florida appears to be about as strained as I could possibly imagine. This case may not survive a motion to dismiss for lack of jurisdiction.

ealandg

Crito, I think they added in K6AZ because of his involvement in their ANA "to-do" from last year.

Hmmm. It also looks like they are alleging a conspiracy. I wonder what evidence they have of that? I made a decision about ACG based on my own independent observation of the material...

jpumper

It seems to me, All comedians, Leno, Letterman, and for that matter, most people would spend the rest of their lives behind bars OR pay hefty fines for what they have said.

IMO the plaintiff's lawyers are the ones whom give the profession a BAD name. AS in frivolous in nature. IMO, I also would never buy a coin from them due to the blantant overgrading standards they employ. But if they sold their coins for the "real value" of the coin, thats another matter---maybe I would buy. Yep, I won't buy a Mercedes and expect to receive a Volkswagon.

FatMan

Fun read. Thanks for the link. This will be very interesting.

Sequitur

IMO the plaintiff's lawyers are the ones whom give the profession a BAD name. AS in frivolous in nature.

This is off-topic response, but the statement merits a response. What about defense lawyers who for years shredded documents, advised their clients to commit perjury, and out-and-out lied about mass killers like asbestos and tobacco? Or lawyers who sought to destroy evidence showing Swiss banks systematically swindled billions of dollars from Jews in Nazi concentration camps. Or defense lawyers who whitewashed fraud -- think Enron. Link. ("Atlanta-based examiner Neal Batson also suggests that the Houston law firms Vinson & Elkins and Andrews Kurth may have committed legal "malpractice" and aided and abetted the financing hijinks by Enron officials.")

In all these cases, whistleblowers either procured evidence or fought immense pressure from the inside, shattering the "defenses" of these criminals and their lawyers.

Aethelred

We can only hope that Hager is paying his lawyers with ACG graded coins!

Sequitur

Yeah -- I'd love to know if this case is on contingency or if ACG instead is paying their lawyers' bills hour after hour.

MICHAELDIXON

What is most troublesome to me is the people who are being sued. Most, (and probably all) are very intelligent people who know better than to make open statements like they have been accused of. We can laugh at the lawsuit, but how many of the Counts is the jury going to award monetary damages on? Those being sued are going to fork out many dollars in attorney fees, and if they would have used common sense, they wouldn't be listed in the complaint. There is a large, not fine line between educating the public and defaming someone. This case, unlike the ANA situation with Barry, is in a real world, real life, court of law. It's unfortunate, but something that could have been avoided with a little commonsense.

newsman

This lawsuit bothers me because it doesn't distinguish between people who have crossed the line and those who were simply trying to educate the public. It seems like an obvious effort by a company with questionable practices to silence its critics, knowing those critics don't have the resources to fight back.

Journalists who try to exposed crooked practices in business and government are threatened with libel lawsuits all the time by their targets. Most times, it's an idle threat, because even crooks know the media have both a right to inform the public and the power to fight them off. That has happened to me a couple of times, but the accusers backed off when they knew they would lose.

MICHAELDIXON

For those of you who have sent me PMs and e-mails, I am not an associate of ACG and I have no reason to apologize. These are my feelings and I don't assume everybody on the list is guilty. Some of the people on the list I consider friends and hate to see them being sued. Some of the people were actually just educating the public about grading standards and have no business being sued, but once again, there is a large line between educating and defaming someone. The bottom line is: "Watch what you write or say." The lawsuit over some of the blasting... anybody could see it was coming. Use common sense during your lifetime in anything you do.

LucyBop

<< <i>The bottom line is: "Watch what you write or say." >>



I guess no more MichaelDixon bashing threads for me.

Barry

I wonder if Michael Dixon would feel differently if significant percentage of this forum found themselves as the defendants to a lawsuit? Many here have made a negative comment about someone or some company somewhere along the line - whether an Ebay seller, Ebay itself, a dealer, a grading service (grading ability or customer service or turnaround time), an auction company's photos, etc. etc.
'nuff said.

newsman

Mike:

Your advice on this is right on and no one should be asking you to apologize. I've got years of training and experience to help me understand where the line lies between fair comment and libel, and it's still no guarantee of protection. I think this lawsuit is a load of bull and an attack on free speech, but that doesn't mean it's not good advice to choose your words carefully.

lava

Mr. Michael Dixon, you MAY be right, but I happen to think you are wrong. I don't think you appreciate just how much damage a coin grading company can collectively do to consummers and the hobby in general. Do a little research on Mr. Ponzi, and the now-dubbed Ponzi scheme. I helped prosecute a very large Ponzi scheme, as well as two smaller ones. The damage is devastasting, and there the consummers affected were quantifiable. Assuming that a seller wants to recover his or her investment in a coin, ACG potentially caused damaged every time a coin was resold in the marketplace. Getting personal with comments about fishwife, or whatever it was that was alleged in the complaint, was not necessary, but by the same token, I doubt any specific damages can be attributable to THAT comment. The damage claims are based on the comments that ACG knowlingly helped deceive the coin-buying public. Did you want to take issue with that Mr. Dixon?

By the way, the plaintiffs attorneys are not on a contingency. Do I know that for a fact? No. I do know that firms rarely ever take on commercial litigation on a contingency, and in my own area I can think of a single firm that does. In my lifetime, I have made one exception to this rule, and while I didn't get paid on a cash as you go basis, it also wasn't a contingency -- I took a lien against assets that were the subject of a disputed lien. My payment was essentially a contingency, because my payment was contingent upon successfully defeating the alleged priority lienholder.

I think ACG will lose and lose badly. I'd like to help unite the defendants and offer some stretegy if any of the defendants are interested.

newsman

Lava:

This isn't an either/or situation. Mike's advice is sound, but that doesn't mean we have to leave Accugrade alone. We just have to be careful how we approach the situation. I also happen to believe Accugrade will lose, primarily because it seems the more people know about their business the less they seem to like.

I would be happy to help out as well. Let me know what I can do.

Prometheus183

edited to add:
PLEASE!!! This is exactly the type of BS that wastes time and money. Read it for hell sake, don't read into it. You don't have to be "my cousin Vinnie" to realize this is going to put the court in stitches. The terminology and reading alone begs for Hollywood screenplay. It's either enough to make people puke, the next best Quintin Terintino flick, or the greatest commedy of the decade,.... take your pick.

In fact, pending the outcome of this "trial", I might write a "based on a true story" screenplay myself. I'm calling Quintin tomorrow!!
I wonder if Steve Martin would be willing to play centsles' part? Perhaps Bill Clinton could portray Alan Hager, and Monica in a cameo appearance!! Oh, I see Oscar in my future

Craig