Who's Looking Out For Us?
Typetone
Posts: 1,621 ✭✭
Is there any watchdog group in the industry that is doing a good job of looking out for the average collector?
The ANA?, PNG?
For my money, PCGS is watching out for the average collector. Though they have a profit motive, and though they don't claim it, PCGS is the industry watchdog.
Why? Simply the discipline of hard-nosed grading. Next time some scum tries to sell you overgraded raw junk, just ask them to run it through PCGS for grading first. Offer to pay his price plus grading fees if it grades at his level. If not, you get to walk away. Watch how fast they slip back under the log.
Does PCGS ever make mistakes and overgrade? Yes. Does politics ever affect their grading? Maybe. Do they pay hard, cold, cash to take care of their mistakes? YES. Every time I have ever sent in a mistake coin, I got back a check fast. And that baby, is consumer protection!!
Can NGC fill the same roll? Perhaps, but for my money I prefer a single, tough, third-party standard.
Greg
Edited to correct spelling.
The ANA?, PNG?
For my money, PCGS is watching out for the average collector. Though they have a profit motive, and though they don't claim it, PCGS is the industry watchdog.
Why? Simply the discipline of hard-nosed grading. Next time some scum tries to sell you overgraded raw junk, just ask them to run it through PCGS for grading first. Offer to pay his price plus grading fees if it grades at his level. If not, you get to walk away. Watch how fast they slip back under the log.
Does PCGS ever make mistakes and overgrade? Yes. Does politics ever affect their grading? Maybe. Do they pay hard, cold, cash to take care of their mistakes? YES. Every time I have ever sent in a mistake coin, I got back a check fast. And that baby, is consumer protection!!
Can NGC fill the same roll? Perhaps, but for my money I prefer a single, tough, third-party standard.
Greg
Edited to correct spelling.
0
Comments
Any benifit to the collector is merely a means to an end.
<< <i>Is there any watchdog group in the industry that is doing a good job of looking out for the average collector? >>
no
but there are groups of average collectors who look out for the average collector. there's any number of 1000's of coin clubs out there you could join.
K S
Russ, NCNE
hey Greg
how in the heck can you police an opinion or enforce any attempt to do so?? just thinking about the mechanics of what it would take to do that makes me want to take a nap!!! i'm amazed at the fact that some collectors think they can skip the basic steps of learning about what they're doing and taking some lumps along the way. consider most other endeavors, heck, all other endeavors that are really meaningful, you start out ignorant and learn over the course of time. Numismatics isn't any different. join a club, choose a Mentor, read...read...read, study...study...study, go to shows and look at coins, go to shops and look at coins, go online and look at coins, sit at home and look at coins, well........you get the idea. to expect a watchdog to make me safe in the hobby is pure laziness which is quite indicative of what some of the problems are in America today.
maybe it will PO Russ to hear "buy the coin and not the holder" one more time, but the whole thing going on over the ridiculous PNG paid endorsement is about enough to make me puke already!!!!!!!
please stop!!!!!!!!!please stop!!!!!!!!!please stop!!!!!!!!!please stop!!!!!!!!!please stop!!!!!!!!!
let's get over the notion that we need to choose up sides here. i guarantee 100% money back everytime that if you follow my above suggestions, you'll have fun................or you'll leave the hobby because you actually have to something. PCGSNGCANACSICGPCISEGSACGNTC, shake 'em up and pull out any thee or four letters that you want to. if you haven't studied and learned anything about the hobby and your particular area of interest, what it says on the holder is meaningless.
why don't we get back to some discussion about coins and lose the rambling and nonsensical discussion about holders?? watchdog schmatchdog. look out for your own interests and follow the Golden Rule in all your endeavors. oh yeah, did i mention learn about the hobby??
.........OK, i'm back now. what about those Indians??
al h.
Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry
I hate it when you see my post before I can edit the spelling.
Always looking for nice type coins
my local dealer
I agree, ultimately we are our own best watchdog. All I am saying though is that when you buy PCGS or even NGC they will put their money on the line. If years later you discover a grading mistake, they will make it good. No need for long arbitration, arguements, old boys or whatever. Send in the coin, get a check back. Yes, I should know what I am doing. But when I make a mistake and buy an overgraded coin, it's nice to know I can be covered even years later.
Compare that to how it used to be, and often still is. Go to a lot (not all) of raw coin dealers and pick up a BU coin. A few years later you discover it has some rub and is actually AU. Good luck getting your money back in that case.
Greg
in that regard, PCGS and NGC probably extend an offer that is past what a reasonable person should expect from any kind of service with anything and should be complimented for it. most everything has some kind of time limit associated with it. in your example, i think the collector only notices that it has some rub and is actually AU because a few years later he is better educated. in all other endeavors, as i mentioned, he probably should have educated first and made the buy later or suffered consequences of his actions.
too many collectors expect some type of immunity from their actions and lack of knowledge, it is quite simply a symptom of the times where accepting responsibility is viewed as a weakness. i've taken my lumps and whined on occasion along the way and i'm grateful PCGS bailed me out once. i learned from the experience.
al h.
how in the heck can you police an opinion or enforce any attempt to do so?? just thinking about the mechanics of what it would take to do that makes me want to take a nap!!! i'm amazed at the fact that some collectors think they can skip the basic steps of learning about what they're doing and taking some lumps along the way. consider most other endeavors, heck, all other endeavors that are really meaningful, you start out ignorant and learn over the course of time. Numismatics isn't any different. join a club, choose a Mentor, read...read...read, study...study...study, go to shows and look at coins, go to shops and look at coins, go online and look at coins, sit at home and look at coins, well........you get the idea. to expect a watchdog to make me safe in the hobby is pure laziness which is quite indicative of what some of the problems are in America today.
maybe it will PO Russ to hear "buy the coin and not the holder" one more time, but the whole thing going on over the ridiculous PNG paid endorsement is about enough to make me puke already!!!!!!!
please stop!!!!!!!!!please stop!!!!!!!!!please stop!!!!!!!!!please stop!!!!!!!!!please stop!!!!!!!!!
let's get over the notion that we need to choose up sides here. i guarantee 100% money back everytime that if you follow my above suggestions, you'll have fun................or you'll leave the hobby because you actually have to something. PCGSNGCANACSICGPCISEGSACGNTC, shake 'em up and pull out any thee or four letters that you want to. if you haven't studied and learned anything about the hobby and your particular area of interest, what it says on the holder is meaningless.
why don't we get back to some discussion about coins and lose the rambling and nonsensical discussion about holders?? watchdog schmatchdog. look out for your own interests and follow the Golden Rule in all your endeavors. oh yeah, did i mention learn about the hobby??
.........OK, i'm back now. what about those Indians??
keets SSSSHHHHHHHHHH. your letting the cat out of the bag, if everybody took your advice it would be harder for the rest of us to by quality coins in lesser holders (or raw) for a fraction of the true value and then get them slabbed and sell it to the sheep who only know how to read slab numbers for 100's or even 1000's of percent profit!! Fortunately I don't think we have to worry about that happening since most people are to busy to enjoy the hobby that much so they are stuck being speculators or accumulators.
<< <i>maybe it will PO Russ to hear "buy the coin and not the holder" one more time, but the whole thing going on over the ridiculous PNG paid endorsement is about enough to make me puke already!!!!!!! >>
Keets, please explain to me how someone like me can buy the coin and not the holder. We have no more shops in this town, and I am forced to buy my coins online. You can't really go by images, a lot of them just plain stink. The only thing I can really go by is what holder it is in and what I know I can expect with a coin in a particular holder.
If you are going to come back with something like 'yeah but you can return it', that isn't really an option in some cases where you wind up paying shipping both ways plus a 5-20% "restocking fee".
<< <i>Who's Looking Out For Us? >>
your mama.
K S
<< <i>collectors think they can skip the basic steps of learning >>
Keets,
Learning about your hobby has everything to do with it. But even the most learned collector hasn't any control over when a deal goes south. Coins lost in the mail, dealers refusing to refund money on crappy coins, or any other non coin related issue.
I myself just went through a coin lost in the mail with the dealer refusing to refund the whole price. Remarkably, though when the coin was finally found, he refused to send it to me because now he had too much "invested in the coin." I never got my coin, but I did get my money fully refunded. Compliments of the ANA. I have nothing good to say about the PNG, but I could go on forever about what a joke that organization is.
This hobby needs a watchdog group, with some power over what goes on outside whether a coin is properly graded. In my book, I thank the ANA for their time and diligence in pursuing my complaint.
However I feel the PNG is a "good ole boy" network. Nothing more than a club for the hotshot dealers.
hey Boz
i really don't think the original post had anything to do with Coins lost in the mail, dealers refusing to refund money on crappy coins, or any other non coin related issue. there are different entities inplace for society as a whole to deal with those types of things. Greg is clearly referring to the grading of coins which is at it's heart an opinion and nothing more. it seems he's alluding to some way of having an agency or regulator which would oversee the varying grading services, some type of consumer protection. i simply think that the education of each of us works well in the hobby to stifle a need for that. as i said in a previous post, how can you regulate an opinion. the mechanics of such a monster would stop, not slow, but stop the grading process at the services and add so much to the cost that it would be prohibitive for them to stay in business and for us to ask for their services. the howling and gnashing of teeth would be deafening!!!!!!
please explain to me how someone like me can buy the coin and not the holder.
hey Eric
you obviously know the answer to your own question but i'll put it in my terms anyway. if seeing a coin in hand isn't an option, either send a coin back when you're unsatisfied or don't buy it and put yourself at risk. very simple. but please don't say that that adage isn't sensible.
al h.
<< <i>you obviously know the answer to your own question but i'll put it in my terms anyway. if seeing a coin in hand isn't an option, either send a coin back when you're unsatisfied or don't buy it and put yourself at risk. very simple. but please don't say that that adage isn't sensible. >>
You're right, I do know the answer. And the answer is, I don't buy raw coins online, and I only buy coins in PCGS, NGC, ANACS and ICG holders. I only buy coins where the seller provides a good image. I do not buy coins from anyone who charges a restocking fee for returned coins. In the last couple of years of using that policy, I have only had to return a few coins, both PCGS and NGC. And I know how to grade what I collect with the best of them.
This "buy the coin and not the holder" is a buzz phrase commonly used to defend buying coins in third tier holders, where the buyer ought to know better. There is a reason these coins are in those holders and why they are being sold online. Ask Mr Paseo.
i guess we just have different opinions..............again. i've learned not to get involved in those with you, but thanks for the invitation. have a nice night.
al h.
<< <i>hey Eric
i guess we just have different opinions..............again. i've learned not to get involved in those with you, but thanks for the invitation. have a nice night. >>
I wonder why
The Ludlow Brilliant Collection (1938-64)
Can you dectect highly deceptive die struck counterfeits?
How about a puttied coin or a lasered proof?
How many of those have you ever even seen that were identified as such so that you even knew that you were looking at a doctored coin?
How do you know that you collection of raw coins is not laced with doctored coins and counterfeits?
And, tell us. Did you acquire those world class skills before you ever purchased a coin?
I though not.
CG
hey CalGold
thanks for giving me credit for things i didn't say. the above is cut from page one, perhaps you missed it. if you've ever read any of my replies on any threads, you'd know without a doubt that i freely admit my mistakes and the learning process that i've gone through. with that also goes the ability to say that in the areas i choose to collect in, i feel comfortable and confident when i look at, buy or render a personal opinion of a coin.
just to set the record straight, i'll answer your questions.
So Keets are you implying that you have the grading skills to work for PCGS?----no.
Can you dectect highly deceptive die struck counterfeits?----no.
How about a puttied coin or a lasered proof?----no.
How many of those have you ever even seen that were identified as such so that you even knew that you were looking at a doctored coin?----none.
How do you know that you collection of raw coins is not laced with doctored coins and counterfeits?----ah, finally a question i can answer with more than one word!!! i can say that because it's an area i have studied and learned from the mistakes along the way. knowledge is now my power.
And, tell us. Did you acquire those world class skills before you ever purchased a coin?----and another question i can answer!!! as i said earlier, i've taken the time to study along the way and concentrated my efforts in areas where i know what i'm doing, sort of like reading the book before i bought the coin. mistakes were made and learned from without expecting others to bear the responsibility of my ignorance.
why would you assign all those unimplied qualities to me?
al h.
<< <i>
<< <i>you obviously know the answer to your own question but i'll put it in my terms anyway. if seeing a coin in hand isn't an option, either send a coin back when you're unsatisfied or don't buy it and put yourself at risk. very simple. but please don't say that that adage isn't sensible. >>
You're right, I do know the answer. And the answer is, I don't buy raw coins online, and I only buy coins in PCGS, NGC, ANACS and ICG holders. I only buy coins where the seller provides a good image. I do not buy coins from anyone who charges a restocking fee for returned coins. In the last couple of years of using that policy, I have only had to return a few coins, both PCGS and NGC. And I know how to grade what I collect with the best of them.
This "buy the coin and not the holder" is a buzz phrase commonly used to defend buying coins in third tier holders, where the buyer ought to know better. There is a reason these coins are in those holders and why they are being sold online. Ask Mr Paseo. >>
Hey AZ,
I
If you think about your answers you'd see that you might have learned just as much over the years with fewer "lumps" along the way if you purchased only PCGS and NGC coins until you acquired sufficient experience to protect yourself. But even now, although you say that you have the knowledge in the areas you collect to protect yourself, you admit that you cannot identify deceptive counterfeits or deceptively doctored coins. So it just might be that you own some of those without even knowing it. Of course, you might collect series that are infrequently counterfeited or doctored, which itself adds a level of safety.
I agree that one still needs to buy the coin not the holder, for all of the well known reasons. And yes, you can get stuck with a dog in a PCGS or NGC holder. I think that most of us, myself included, own or have owned our share of dogs, and we all agree that even one is one too many. I also suspect that there are those of us who own dogs but don't even know it. Who knows, I might be one of those people. But at least if your dogs are in PCGS and NGC holders you have a shot at selling them on ebay. There is liquidity for those coins, maybe not at the price you paid, but at least you have some downside protection.
CG