You want facts, I will give you facts!!

DeutscherGeist · March 21, 2004 9:07AM

I hear incidents (most from this board) where customer submits to PSA and card comes holdered in with debris, hair, even particles which dent the card. That is no problem if PSA can make good on it. If they pay for shipping both ways in accomodating you, then please let them make good on it and don't complain. Companies have a right to make a mistake and then correct it.

I read a published incident (in a sportscard magazine) when someone submitted a mint Gretzky card and got one holdered that received a very low grade and looked nothing like the card he submitted through his dealer (who also confessed that something was not right). Card was given back to PSA. PSA lost the card, refunded customer close to what a PSA 9 Gretzky rookie was worth.

When the BIG MAC was hot, the counterfeiters jumped on the band wagon. Some of those cards slipped by PSA. When PSA found out, they bought back all those false cards in holders.

HERE IS A REPORT FROM THE BETTER BUSINESS BUREAU:

Professional Sports Authenticator
P.O. Box 6180
Newport Beach CA 92658

Business Started: 02/03/86
File Open Date: 08/24/98
Last Report Date: 01/03/03
Principal Contact: Bob Wilson

Phone: (949) 833-8824
Fax: (949) 833-7955
Email: collectors@universe.com
Web Address: http://www.psacard.com

Bureau ID: 13083567

Nature of Business
This company business selling third-party card grading (sports and non-sports cards).

Bureau File Experience

Based on BBB files, this company has an unsatisfactory record with the Bureau. An unsatisfactory record is given when a pattern in the company's customer complaints causes us concern, when the company does not respond to complaints, or when it will not substantiate its advertising claims.

In this case, our complaint history for this company shows a pattern of unanswered and unresolved customer complaints. In those cases where the company has responded to the complaints brought to its attention by the Bureau, some remain unresolved because it appears that the company did not give adequate consideration to the customer's side of the dispute.

A Better Business Bureau report is based on our file information and experience with an individual company over the past three years.

The Better Business Bureau does not endorse, recommend, or disapprove of any company, product, or service.

DeutscherGeist · March 21, 2004 9:11AM

When you talk about companies like Mercedes-Benz, Nordstrom, or Sears, you will see real customer service there, not only according to the BBB, but individual anecdotes as well.

I encourage all board members to utilize the services of the BBB when dealing with disputes with companies. It gives you some more leverage.

Justin · March 21, 2004 9:28AM

Wow!

Whatever happened to the WIWAG cards?

Justin · March 21, 2004 9:32AM

I give this thread 12 hours and its history!

WinPitcher · March 21, 2004 9:38AM

yeah it seems the basher's are out in full force this evening that is for sure....

edited to say: I wonder how many times I screwed up in my lifetime at work after i completed my 7 mil task.....hmmm

CADILLACN97 · March 21, 2004 9:56AM

DG, while this is a 'free country', and that information is public domain (property of the people of the united states), i don't seeing it going over well with the powers that be. i myself would give this less than 12 hours.

DeutscherGeist · March 21, 2004 10:17AM

All I did was posted the BBB report directly copied from their website. Everyone has access to that at

BBB.org

I am only giving reference to hard facts (thus citing BBB). If you look at my comments, I said all good stuff about PSA. If this thread should go RIP, it can't be for what I stated.

Someone brought up the incident about WIWAG not being addressed by PSA. That was not my comment. I don't know much about that situation to comment. That is the job of another board member who has more knowledge of that issue.

qualitycards · March 21, 2004 10:20AM

DG - So what do you recommend?
Should we just collect/sell ungraded cards? Or should we use another company? And which is on good terms w/ the BBB? ...jay

DeutscherGeist · March 21, 2004 10:31AM

I don't care to "recommend" anything. Just remember to make things easy for PSA when submitting (filling out their forms correctly, dotting each "i" using the correct Card Saver size, submitting only the variety of cards they grade, calling them to ask if they grade strange cards like POKEMAN before submitting, etc. Make sure everything is done neatly from your end to prevent as much problems as possible. Some people submit raw cards carefully wrapped in tissue paper as protection and then complain to PSA about the low grade (DUH, what you expect)

You guys should be aware of the BBB report. Keyword here is "awareness." Use the BBB for disputes in all dealings. I am just passing on useful data to board members. Use it if you want, but don't attack me. Take it up with the BBB if you don't like their report.

packCollector · March 21, 2004 10:44AM

I guess I should go back to buying raw overgraded trimmed cards now that I have read that the better business bureau gives them an unsatisfactory rating. so there cusomer service sucks. NOT!!

call gai and see what kind of service you get, they lose your stuff and it takes 11 months to get reimbersement . also take s 4 months of running around to get an answer swhere your stuff is. also , takes 1 month to get your stuff back becasue they have supplier problems and are out on "special" grading trips.

we are in a hobby and I look at the alternatives and will take psa thanks for the bbb report

edited to add : DG, I am not attacking you. just not sure waht I can actually get out of this.

Mantlefan · March 21, 2004 10:48AM

I've had about 75 submissions to PSA involving over 2,000 cards. The two times they did not meet the turnaround guarantee, they gave me an equal amount of free submissions. I think the BBB is a poor source for information on a company with whom we've all have had multiple transactions.

qualitycards · March 21, 2004 10:54AM

Funny thing about the BBB, someone will contact them if there is a problem, even though the seller in many instances may not be in the wrong.
No one contacts the BBB w/ a complaint if the transaction went smooth. So after 7 million cards graded I suspect that PSA's winning % of satisfied customers is quite high...jay

WinPitcher · March 21, 2004 10:56AM

....went from extolling them to bashing them, sorta caught me by surprise.......hmmmmm

CADILLACN97 · March 21, 2004 11:10AM

what's happenin DG? i didn't want it to seem like i was bashing you. sorry if it came across like that. i have looked at the BBB many times. in this case it was more less just a shock that someone posted that info here on the boards. you are right, it is public knowledge, i am just more concerned about the can of george e dubbya that might get opened.

CON40 · March 21, 2004 11:17AM

Remember folks... we're talking about 7 million graded cards here! There are bound to be a few rotten apples in a bunch that big... I am not defending PSA, but the odds of making every customer 100% happy, and of making every transaction flawlessly are impossible. The vast majority of the time, PSA gets it right and if/when they don't, they generally own up to their mistake.

And take what the BBB says with a grain of salt. They are in business to sell BBB stickers and counter cards. Nothing more and nothing less.

PSARich · March 21, 2004 11:54AM

What's with all the recent posts lately that express negativity toward PSA...and then complaints when some posts/threads are removed. How many of you work for companies that even have web sites with message boards that allow customers to discuss the product. Not many I suspect. So if that service is provided and people use it to critisize the company, it's not surprising to me that PSA decides some posts are not appropriate. I consider the message boards as a service to collectors. I learn alot and appreciate the opportunity to participate. If I have a problem with PSA, I call them. I don't make it a public issue. I have contacted Joe Orlando more than once and have always been satisfied with his responses.

WinPitcher · March 21, 2004 12:09PM

nevermind

pc · March 21, 2004 12:26PM

<< <i>When you talk about companies like Mercedes-Benz...you will see real customer service there, not only according to the BBB, but individual anecdotes as well. >>

Mercedes-Benz customer service-what did their related company do to their customers?
they made the gas chambers which were efficiently used to murder their future customers as well as millions
of peaceful citizens.
furthermore an "anecdote" is defined by The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition
as "A short account of an interesting or humorous incident."the second definition ,
"Secret or hitherto undivulged particulars of history " must be where the Mercedes-Benz
gas chamber tie-in applies to your "real customer service" statement.i suppose you're
suggesting PSA should poison it's current and potential clientele with plastic?!?

WinPitcher · March 21, 2004 12:30PM

huh???

Vargha · March 21, 2004 12:49PM

I actually have two cards that I turned into PSA at the Hollywood Park show in early February that were obvious overgrades. The person "handling" it still has not returned my phone calls despite several voice mail messages left in his box. I suppose I will end up getting these two cards back eventually with the same globs of crap on their front surfaces and an explanation that they are properly graded as unqualified PSA 9's.

ctsoxfan · March 21, 2004 12:57PM

This is a bizarre thread, and I am unsure what to make of it. Bashing PSA on their own board is just asking for trouble anyway, and let's face it, why else would you publish that BBB unsatisfactory report? I agree with the folks who have said, take your cards and business elsewhere if you are unhappy with PSA, and stop crying about it here. See how well your cards fare in GAI or other companies holders.

DaBigHurt · March 21, 2004 9:27PM

<< <i>yeah it seems the basher's are out in full force this evening that is for sure.... >>

Fear not, the apologists shall come out in full force as well!!

Meanwhile, I'm still waiting for PSA to enter into the system my submittal from February. I've not complained yet, have I?

Aknot · March 21, 2004 9:46PM

Ive got my "package" but with all this "bad" press Im afraid to use PSA, Ebay, or Paypal.......

Once I get my "monster" box (TODAY YAAAAY) I will be documenting my very first submission both via video camera and pictures/scans. Im doing this twofold:

1: To show how to "properly" do it.

2: To check the system.

Lets see what happens.

carew4me · March 21, 2004 10:25PM

You guys are insane.

Aknot · March 21, 2004 10:28PM

<< <i>You guys are insane. >>

pffft Like I have never heard that before.

wolfbear · March 22, 2004 2:04AM

Agree with CON40 - the Better Business Bureau
is an outdated, for profit, outfit that survives by frightening small companies into joining their worthless organization.

Anyone who has owned a business knows that the customer is NOT always right,
and to pay off every scam artist with a questionable complaint would result in financial suicide.

Vargha · March 22, 2004 5:02AM

You guys are insane.

So, what's your point?

toppsgun · March 22, 2004 5:09AM

"i am just more concerned about the can of george e dubbya that might get opened."

Ask and ye shall receive.

Woodson28Fan · March 22, 2004 5:50AM

It would be refreshing to see objective people on here, not people who have thousands invested in PSA-holdered cards and want to live in denial about PSA's shortcomings. I'm well aware that BGS has shortcomings as well, but to bash this guy for just posting this report is insane. There are enough educated collectors on here to look at the grading issue objectively - not as a turf war involving PSA vs. BGS or whoever else.

WinPitcher · March 22, 2004 6:53AM

wood it was the way he did it...in one breath he said anytime a person had a problem psa would fix then WHAMMM throws that garbage up there.

CADILLACN97 · March 22, 2004 7:38AM

thanx TOPPSGUN!! i was wondering when the dubbya would show up

!!

i just got home from work and was suprised to see it [this thread] still here. i like DG and have never had a problem with him, but i agree with WINPITCHER, it was just the way it was thrown about, out of nowhere. i mean, say the local walmart (for example) had a bad BBB report. i wouldn't go in there, grab the nearest microphone, and start telling the whole store about it. i think it was just gone about wrong.

CON40 · March 22, 2004 7:41AM

"i am just more concerned about the can of george e dubbya that might get opened."

Ask and ye shall receive.

Priceless!

poeandbb · March 22, 2004 9:34AM

It would be refreshing to see objective people on here, not people who have thousands invested in PSA-holdered cards and want to live in denial about PSA's shortcomings.

This is the best post I've read in months. This is an excellent point. A lot of people on here do seem to be in denial. As soon as you mention PSA in a negative light you are seen as a "basher." For lack of a better term, these people seem naive. All I want is PSA to be consistent so I can submit to them. I admit that BGS blows and SGC and GAI don't sell for as much as PSA. It seems that PsA has stopped trying to improve itself. I think because the naive customers have stopped caring about the resubmitting (lack of consistency) that PsA has stopped trying to improve. They are content with being # 1 while being mediocre. It's kind of like the old saying, I think, "The one eyed man is king in the land of the blind." You don't have to be great to be a leader. This is quite evident.

Vargha · March 22, 2004 9:55AM

Joe Orlando only has one eye?

Griffins · March 22, 2004 10:01AM

There is no "I" in Orlando!

WinPitcher · March 22, 2004 10:02AM

edited to say this: nada

DeutscherGeist · March 22, 2004 10:15AM

I am not bashing PSA, I just wanted to show everyone several sources of opinions, not just the ones who submit in bulk to PSA. Take whatever you want out of this thread. I was merely exhibiting the big picture.

The fact that this thread is getting so big and lasted beyond anyone's expectations confirms the above.

HammeringHank · March 22, 2004 11:55AM

Very interesting (said while standing behind a palm tree...with a heavy german accent)...

WinPitcher · March 22, 2004 12:08PM

sigh

Dhjacks · March 22, 2004 12:17PM

As soon as you mention PSA in a negative light you are seen as a "basher

You might want to add that if you say something in a positive light that you are seeing things through rose-colored glasses and naive.

It's getting tough to have an opinion around here.

2323 · March 22, 2004 12:36PM

There is no "I" in Orlando!

There ain't no "We" either!

You want facts, I will give you facts!!

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