The case against Proof Lincoln PR70DCs . . .
DMWJR
Posts: 6,008 ✭✭✭✭✭
We all know the story of the 1963 PR70DC. Here is the current example of why you should not pay a premium for Lincoln Cent PR70DCs . . .
This coin is Lot 5274 in the upcoming Heritage auction. Bid to $1,558 with B/P five days before the auction.
There are four 1973 PR70DC's graded. Here is the last one that sold for a staggering $6,325 from the collection of Bill Bland by Heritage on January 7, 2003:
Doug
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Comments
rainbowroosie April 1, 2003
Hello my fellow dime man. As said in another currently running thread, grades should be interpreted on a bell curve. Grades range from 1-70 and then number 70 arbitrarily determined to be the top of the scale.
Under the PCGS grading guide "MS 70" or "PR 70" means "as struck, with full strike." I can't imaging a coin being "as struck" with toning already on it (Bland coin) or with spots like the one currently up for auction.
I don't mean to disrespect my fellow collectors who buy PR70 Lincolns, but I think I will have an easier time keeping my PR70 Roosevelt Dimes in "as struck, with full strike" condition. Proof Lincolns to me are made of the most fickle metal of any coin out there. They can't wait to grow a spot or grab a little tone here and there.
Anybody have photos of the other two PR70's? I would be interested to see all four of them, and see which one is "perfect."
Registry 1909-1958 Proof Lincolns
My Complete PROOF Lincoln Cent with Major Varieties(1909-2015)Set Registry
But for everyone new PR70 found, apparently an old one sprouts spots.
Personally if I were in charge of PCGS, I'd refuse to grant any cent a PR70 grade until it was at least 10 or 20 years old so that I would be sure that any little bits of contamination added by the mint had had a chance to turn. Then if I did think a cent was deserving of a PR70, I'd probably require that the coin be kept in its PCGS holder at PCGS for 6 months so that any little bits of contamination added by PCGS (or a coin doctor) had a chance to turn. If the coin started to turn, then bingo: It's instantly regraded down from PR70. Only after a 6 month wait would I release the coin to the submitter. Sure the submitter would have to wait a long while to obtain his or her PR70 cent, but 1) PCGS would face fewer issues with PR70 coins turning in the holder, 2) the submitter would be virtually certain that his or her PR70 would remain a PR70 indefinitely, and 3) PCGS's reputation for being the most conservative and accurate third party grading company would be enhanced.
You know, I think enough of my suggestion that I'll post it in the Questions forum so that HRH might be able to respond to it.
Mark
I understand that they are implemeting it under their defined standards of no imperfections
visible with 5x magnification.
In that context, I think yours is an excellent idea, Mark!
And what submitter would be unhappy receiving the news from PCGS that "We would like to
assign your coin the 70 grade, but will need to 'quarantine' the coin for 6 months before
we can do so"?
Mark, that is a tremendous suggestion! I have to say I posted this thread just for fun, but look what came out of it!
Don, I'll bet your 69's are on par with the 70's. I'm still looking for a few good 69's to improve my set and replace a few that I don't think measure up anymore.
Solid, I would love to see that on my posted grades. Six months would be worth the wait.
The 73 in Proof 70 D cameo that sold for $6,325 was bought into the present #1 set. The proof 69 D cam that they sold was better than the proof 70 IMO.The present proof 70, D cam in the Heritage sale is worse in my opinion.
One doesn't have to be a genius to see the pops for Proof 70 D Cam modern Lincolns are going up and the prices are going down.Perhaps more people will collect matte proofs or the 36-42 series.
Stewart
Stewart
<< <i>Perhaps more people will collect matte proofs or the 36-42 series.
Stewart
I would LOVE to see that happen. Steve
My Complete PROOF Lincoln Cent with Major Varieties(1909-2015)Set Registry
<< <i>I don't mean to disrespect my fellow collectors who buy PR70 Lincolns, but I think I will have an easier time keeping my PR70 Roosevelt Dimes in "as struck, with full strike" condition. Proof Lincolns to me are made of the most fickle metal of any coin out there. They can't wait to grow a spot or grab a little tone here and there. >>
Doug, This is exactly why I do not collect Lincolns. I love the little coin don't get me wrong, but is it worth the money to spend on a PR70DCAM, and have it turn. I TOTALLY agree with Mark...they should quarantine all Lincolns for at least 6 months before releasing them...I just got done waiting 3 months for an economy submission, so whats another 3 months.
Here is another question that I need to know, since I do not collect Lincolns...How do you store them? Do you use those silica packs to absorb the moisture surrounding them?
Later, Paul.
Later, Paul.
I believe there are more 1909-1958 Lincoln Proof collectors.I just think they are waiting to post them.
Registry 1909-1958 Proof Lincolns
Let's leave the Memorial Cents to Gerry Glasser.........
THE ONE AND ONLY KING OF LINCOLN MEMORIALS !
STEWART
<< <i>And what submitter would be unhappy receiving the news from PCGS that "We would like to assign your coin the 70 grade, but will need to 'quarantine' the coin for 6 months before we can do so"? >>
Isn't that about the time it take to get coins back anyway?
Dennis
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<< <i> One doesn't have to be a genius to see the pops for Proof 70 D Cam modern Lincolns are going up and the prices are going down.Perhaps more people will collect matte proofs or the 36-42 series.
Stewart >>
LOL . . . . one of the things that I cracked up about when reading the auction descriptions was
"PCGS has only certified 55 coins at this lofty level . . . . . . "
"PCGS has only certified 51 coins at this lofty level . . . . . . "
"PCGS has only certified 45 coins at this lofty level . . . . . . "
and so on, and so on
<< <i>Gerry Glasser is the "One and Only Memorial Lincoln King"???????????????
Not just Memorials, but Proof wheats as well, although I would like to see his set compared to Stewart's on a coin by coin basis. . . . uh . . . can you say showdown?
<< <i>But has Gerry ever had the #1 Lincoln Memorial Set?
From what I have read he has not registered. He just has the coins to do so! (sort of the flaw of thinking a number one set means much) When the Lincoln king talks of someone like this, you have to wonder.
Well if you sold your set, you can't lay claim to being any kind of king. Joker maybe!!
Greg
The 1973 Pr70DC currently for sale in the heritage auction is
only TWO serial numers away from the one the sold a while back for 6k.
I wonder if all 4 of the graded coins were sent in the same submission.
tim
Upon reread however, I can see how my post could be offensive.
Therefore, I publically apologize to Mustangman, who I am sure once had one of the finest Lincoln collections in the registry.
Greg
Actually Greg, I believe he had the finest MS Memorial Cent collection at that point in time. A spectacular, visionary, futuristic collection - I believe personal issues required its sale. But, without a doubt, Mustangman was THE pioneer in finest known PCGS MS Memorial cents IMHO
Wondercoin
true if he's paid a lot of money for the coin and/or spent a long time looking for it.
This is, however, the nature of the beast. There are numerous steps which can be
taken to minimize this effect. Chief among them is to store the coins properly. This
single step has proven far and away the most effective means of protecting copper.
It also helps to stabilize the coins before being placed into storage by washing in
alcohol or acetone. There is always some metallic and other debris in mint set pack-
aging and if this is allowed to remain against a coin it is more likely to undergo gal-
vanic changes.
The zinc Lincolns 9uncs)are proving especially difficult to preserve. While this is obvi-
ously a problem and it obviously is bad for collectors it should be remembered that it
still works both ways; as coins turn bad it leaves fewer which are pristine and increases
their price.
Lincolns are still a lot of fun to collect and do require some effort to protect.
Wondercoin, I still to this day must Thank you for having the foresight to point me in the Memorial direction. It was an untapped market at that time and Low Pop coins were much easier to aquire then nowadays with all the people who have figured out that Modern High Grade Lincoln's are collectable just like the other series. They are not just for people who can't afford a different series, as they cost more sometimes that say, nickels or dimes to get in ultra-high grades. I had lost my job and was "FORCED" to sell my #1 set and as you know, I regretted it from the minute I sold it and instantly began rebuilding it. I have had many trials and tribulations since then and have never given up on my quest to one day, return to the top. I may have to conceed that Gerry is "The Lincoln King" for now, but watch out. I may just sneak back in and topple his crown. (Gerry, if you happen to read this, Please email me so we can chat about Lincoln's once again.)