Why is this allowed?

HammeringHank · March 17, 2004 10:18AM

This individual...has more '58 Mantles then anyone I've ever seen...constantly...and they are all 8's...and they are all trimmed...I wonder why eBay allows this...I guess it's none of their business...also...this guy only sells only "private" deals...he has no feedback...another questionable move by eBay...I guess it's buyer be beware...it's not our fault that someone sells trimmed cards under the guise of a graded card...personally I think eBay should probably not allow any PRO cards to be sold on eBay...in vintage years they almost always are trimmed...take a look for yourself...and you can't even warn bidders...because it's all secret!!!

PRO 8 1958 Mantle Card

rw2win · March 17, 2004 10:28AM

"Pro" is all this scum sells. Hope he rots some place hot.

MorrellMan · March 17, 2004 10:30AM

I thought all these clowns worked out of the east! Yikes - it's spreading!

HammeringHank · March 17, 2004 10:32AM

<< I thought all these clowns worked out of the east! Yikes - it's spreading!

>>

They do...I believe there are more than one of them doing this too...he maybe connect to the idiot that is doing this in Brooklyn...they may be feeding each other...

MorrellMan · March 17, 2004 10:41AM

did you do the math? this guy's grossing 10 grand a week - do I hear IRS?

Edited to add: of course, I see he adds sales tax so that's probably not an option....

iamthegreatcornholio · March 17, 2004 10:43AM

I thought that eBay made a policy that stated that the only cards that could be in the "graded" section were cards from legit. graders. I'll try to look that up. They should make a new category - "altered/counterfeit/touched-up/trimmed/home-made/self-graded (like that guy who grades pictures he cuts out of the newspaper)/etc. The worst though is when these scumbags mention "PSA" in their titles. You get a free PSA card of their choice. This obviously is to get more hits on their auctions, but it also shows pretty damning evidence that if they are doing business with PSA why they submitted it to “Pro”.

Brian

HammeringHank · March 17, 2004 10:44AM

I've complained about these guys to eBay...even written them up...a "fraud" report...yet they still are allowed to sell...who is at fault...certainly eBay has to be somewhat responsible...I'm not the only one that has complained...still nothing happens..."what"???? This guy is a crook...and eBay is his accomplice!!!!

WinPitcher · March 17, 2004 10:50AM

hmmmmmmm

MorrellMan · March 17, 2004 10:53AM

well, yeah, what's eBay's rake on 10 gees?

CON40 · March 17, 2004 10:58AM

I agree that these guys are pretty much scum. But at least they are not getting rich anymore pulling this crap.

The suckers are falling by the wayside slowly but surely... see it has 9 bids already, but it's only at $51! No one thinks this is an authentic card. Granted, it should not be sold at all, but I'm sure it won't go for more than $125... and if you saw it raw and was told it was trimmed, you might actually think that maybe $75 to $100 would be reasonable just to have one.

HammeringHank · March 17, 2004 11:02AM

<< you might actually think that maybe $75 to $100 would be reasonable just to have one. >>

Keith...I've got one...send me $100 and I'll be happy to mail it to you!!!!

iamthegreatcornholio · March 17, 2004 11:08AM

I hope you're right CON40, but I think it will go for several hundred. People get greedy when they see the massive SMR for a PSA 8 and it clouds their judgement.

Brian

DaveRead · March 17, 2004 12:30PM

Check out the '55 Clemente RC; in only 1 day it's over $1,600. Too bad they're all trimmed/bleached, what a waste of a nice card.

Boopotts · March 17, 2004 1:34PM

The reason it's allowed is because the seller is auctioning the item listed in the discription. PRO, as we all know, doesn't knock down a card simply because it's trimmed. Now I know I'm in the minority on here, but what's really the problem with this? The only two arguments against selling PRO cards, so far as I can tell, are:

a) By trimming a card-- in this case a '58 Mantle-- you're essentially 'ruining' a card. But there are a couple problems with this. First, UD, Topps, Donruss etc. 'ruin' collectibles all the time when they cut up Gehrig jerseys, etc., and insert them in those ridiculous 'game used' cards. But nobody here thinks that ebay should disallow sellers from selling GU cards, so this argument doesn't hold. Secondly, one could argue whether or not the card in question is actually 'ruined' just because it's been trimmed. Yes, it's value on the market has been compromised. But is this the same as being ruined? And if so, is the one who ruins the collectible morally culpable? For example, would you hold a man who bought a mint raw '68 3D Clemente in the same distain if, after having bought the card, he shoved it in his hip pocket and creased it? You may think he's an idiot, but would you construct the case for him being somehow 'immoral'? (And please, no wise-ass remarks about how 'anyone who would do that to a 3D Clemente card is on the same ethical plane as Kubla Kahn.)

b) The seller is misrepresenting the card. Personally, I don't think he is. The card has been sent to a company called PRO, and been graded an 8. That's the fact. There are no guarantees that that the card hasn't been altered. If you're idea of a nmt-mt card means that the card hasn't been altered post-production, then don't buy cards in PRO holders. If your idea is different, then bid with confidence.

The only real case I can construct against PRO customers is that by selling their cards they turn new collectors away from the hobby. Without question, that is a bad thing. But there are also plenty of other facets of this hobby, frankly, that could turn someone off, not the least of which being one's need to kick out at least 15 large for any mnt-mt graded Topps baseball set issued before 1972. For every one guy who's bought a PRO card, discovered it was trimmed, and subsequently vowed never to get involved in graded cards again, I'll venture there are five guys who thought it would be fun to put together a mint set from '67 or so, then discovered that they'd have to sell their first born to a Thai sex lord in order to finance it. And there are probably TEN guys who thought it would be fun to get back into it, took out a collector's club membership, and sent in the forty nicest cards from their '68 set, only to discover there wasn't any meaningful difference between the cards that came back 8's and the 10's they saw at the Ft. Washington show. Anyone want to guess what these guys are doing with their recreational dollars now? Probably not dumping them into graded cards.
My larger point here is that there is PLENTY to dislike about our hobby, and about the graded card market in particular-- PRO cards are part of the equation, certainly, but so are the exhorbitant prices realized for mint IA no-names from the '72 set, or the trivial distinctions between nmt-mt and gem mint cards. Sure, you can say one's worse than the other, but on what ground do you stand on? Is it because PRO drives more prospective hobbyists away from the sportscard market then the crazy prices for low pop commons? As I said earlier, that's at least debatable.
In my opinion, PSA and SGC have done more good for the hobby than bad. And PRO has done more bad than good. But I can't prove that, which means it's my responsibility to withhold judgment-- or, if not this, then it is at least not within my realm of moral jurisdiction to take actions to prevent the dealers of PRO slabs from earning a living. I have no use for PRO-- certainly I wouldn't lose a minute of sleep if they went belly-up. But to say that PRO cards shouldn't be allowed on ebay, or to insinuate that sellers who broker in PRO cards are dealing in fraudulent business practices, is clearly ridiculous.

poeandbb · March 17, 2004 2:04PM

Check out my PRO Graded Mantle. It is authentic!!Mantle LInk

jaybyrd · March 17, 2004 2:14PM

If you are buying a game used jersey card you know what you are getting. I believe that the collectors who are bidding on this card think since the card is graded it must be unaltered. If that is so they are being deceived by PRO grading and the seller if he knew the card was trimmed beforehand.

If I didn't know any better and spent hundreds or maybe even thousands on this card and later found out the card was altered I know I would be upset. Trimming a card is altering it's original state which in my opinion makes it pretty much worthless.

jaybyrd · March 17, 2004 2:21PM

Awesome link poe - Did you post that on e-bay? Could be very educational for other collectors. I love how the scan is impossible to see any detail on the card.

HammeringHank · March 17, 2004 4:04PM

<< ) The seller is misrepresenting the card. Personally, I don't think he is. The card has been sent to a company called PRO, and been graded an 8. That's the fact. >>

The purpose of grading companies is to verify the authenticity of the material graded...meaning that it is not alone a certain quality....but it is in fact a legitimate card...when a card with rounded corners has been trimmed to make it look like it is a better card...that's fraud...and that's a FACT!...when the same grading company continually grades (or represents cards as high-end material) and they are not...they are perpetuating that fraud...when you pay $500, $600 or $1000 dollars for a card that is in point of fact a trimmed card...you have been defrauded...because that card is now worthless!!! And that is a fact too!

This particular eBayer has sold, or tried to sell, in the past 2 years at least 10-15 1958 Mantle 8 cards...he knows what he is doing...he is seek the uneducated...he is looking for a "sucker"...one of his cronies...someone that is doing exactly the same thing that he is doing...just bought a PSA 5 Mantle card for $402!!...it will be back shortly in a PRO Holder...and most assuredly in a PRO 8 Holder...

Why do I know all of this...because when I came into this hobby a few years ago...I bought one of these "doctored" cards...paid $700 for a "trimmed" PRO 8 Mantle card...this guy swore that he did not handle trimmed cards...he didn't know anything about it...to make a long story short...I eventually reported his fraud...and next thing you know...I was receiving email after email from other "suckers" like me that had been stung the same way...eBay did NOTHING!...in fact when I warned other about him...I got a nasty email from eBay telling me to stop...so what happen...well this guy now has no feedback...and all of his transactions are "private"...because he's hidding...because now you can't warn his next sucker...

There's more...awhile back...I put this card (the Mantle) on sale...on eBay...and I wrote in my description that this was a trimmed card...guess who bought it...the same guy that sold it to me...the one that claimed that he did not get envolved with "trimmed" cards...mr. honest...he even sent me his money...I took it...it didn't cover the cost of my lose...however I refused to send him the card...he was not going to use this card to do it again to someone else...I wrote him that I had turn over all my correspondence to the FBI...and I cc'd a copy of my email to all of those people that had emailed me (the suckers)...I cc'd Joe Orlando, president of PSA...I cc'd a copy to eBay safeharbor...I cc'd PRO (who by the way they would not talk to me)...oh...I never heard from the individual again...

The example of a card you stuff in your pocket and crease is not the same issue...you are not representing the card as a high-end..."graded" card...when you represent a card as a high-end card (and an 8 or an 8.5 certainly is) then you are committing fraud when it is not what it is supposed to be...and that again is a fact!

Last, this is not the only incident of a trimmed card in a PRO holder there are hundreds of such examples if not thousands...to me when you have a constant stream of these types of issues...eBay has received to numerous complaints all having to do with PRO cards...I believe eBay has a responsibility to "us" the users of their services...to protect us from this type of fraud...whether it is with mis-repesenting baseball cards...or any other product that is on eBay...to stick their heads in the sand is not the answer...an occasional fraud is one thing...but when it is done over and over and over again...then what...

It would be very interesting to see eBay's files as to the amount of complaints that they have received with regard to PRO cards...I for one had I the money and the where-for-all...would love to take that case to court...because it smacks of negligence on eBay's part...what is it that they say..."if it smells like a dog, barks like a dog...and whatever else...then it must be a dog...

PRO graded card have too many issues...they are a blight on the hobby...and unless we the knowledgeable do not speak up...then we are doing nothing more than perpetuating and assisting PRO in continuing to do business as usual...having said all this...I am not saying that every card in a PRO holder has problems...what I am saying is way to many of them are...and that is a problem...

WinPitcher · March 17, 2004 10:49PM

Well said.

Jmnesq · March 17, 2004 11:08PM

I don't like PRO at all. They obviously do a disservice to our community. However, if you're going to spend hundreds, if not thousands, of dollars on a baseball card which is in a graded casing, one would hope you would do a little investigation on the grader before you put your money down.

eBay has done nothing wrong. THey are a marketplace which allows the sale of PRO authenticated merchandise. Some of it is legitimate, most is not. However, an educated consumer KNOWS this and stays away from PRO. I would be shocked and appalled if eBay outlawed PRO or GEM or any of the other fly by night companies.

Unsavory characters are in every collectible field. You simply need to know who they are; in this instance, it's pretty easy. Simply don't buy from PRO. If you're new to the hobby and invest in PRO, it's your own fault for not doing a google.com search, or coming onto the CU or Beckett MBs and asking an opinion about PRO.

MorrellMan · March 18, 2004 12:07AM

Jeff and Henri nailed it - good work guys. EBay would no sooner ban PRO listings then they would ban some guy selling Armani clothes that turn out to be Sam Armani - on the other hand, if these PRO hawkers would simply advertise the truth, that they are selling altered cards that, as altered, have no relationship to any published price guide values, then they would no longer be (allegedly) defrauding the public. Till then, buyer beware. Getting burned big time is a hard lesson. I recently saw a listing of some 1948 Swell Sports Thrills with a scan and no description except that these are rare, great cards, etc. When I emailed the guy, he sent me blown-up scans of the cards that showed creases and writing on the backs of all of them. His seeming innocence and lack of deceit led me to believe he really didn't think this information was important. The PRO hawkers know a lot better. But, as an observer of televised courtroom law, I think intent would be hard to prove. You lawyers out there - is this the problem?

poeandbb · March 18, 2004 1:32AM

Not that I would ever do this

, but if you want to stick it to this jerkoff, create a second or third ebay ID and start bidding away. Wait until the end of the auction so he can't cancel low feedback bids. It may not be a permanent solution, but you would be throwing a wrench into the machine.

HammeringHank · March 18, 2004 2:52AM

<< I don't like PRO at all. They obviously do a disservice to our community. However, if you're going to spend hundreds, if not thousands, of dollars on a baseball card which is in a graded casing, one would hope you would do a little investigation on the grader before you put your money down. >>

Jeff...I agree with you 100%...about this...and it was my fault...and here is why...until I bought this trimmed card...I did not know that trimmed existed...it never occurred to me...I was naive...I did not do my homework...

Everyone looks at the world through their own eyes...mine do not see dishonesty first...mine assume the best first...I assume a women is a lady (until proven otherwise)...I assume that you are a gentleman and a scholar (a bit high brow) until proven otherwise...my "word" is my bond...my handshake is incorruptible...it is my pledge...

I'm still a child of the world...an innocent...I have not allowed it to corrupt me into looking for the bad in everything and everyone...I was not prepared for dishonesty...what I saw with respect to the PRO card I bought...it was a graded card...so that took the pressure off me...I was sure that this was a good card...it might not be an 8...and I was willing to take that chance...because I planned on having it regraded by PSA...I was going to be satisfied if it came back as a 7...it never occurred to me that it was trimmed...again my fault in hind-sight...

The touble with anyone, or everyone, that feels that this is not a problem for eBay...maybe you do not understand this principle...we all have a responsibility to make this world a better place...stand-up and be counted...I put it to you that one of the reasons "our world" has gone into a tail spin is because there are those that should say something when things go wrong that don't say anything...they don't get envolved..."it's not their business"...bull!!!!

If I owned eBay...I would "attempt" to make it a safe place to conduct business....they have, in some degree, via feedback...however then why created this oppurtunity to have no feedback and do private transactions...aren't they giving these crooks a place to do business....these crooks don't have to fool everyone...just enough...and that is too many for me...

How about this example...I know of an eBayer in Florida that is shilling for one of these PRO guys...how do I know...the fellow in Florida...does not buy anything (ever)...he only sells...no vintage cards just modern...however he only bids on the PRO vintage cards from this guy in Brooklyn...never wins anything...but does bid...I didn't find this...one of the suckers I mentioned in my previous posting sent me all of the data...because there is a task-force looking into all of this...and I was to pass it along...

I sent all of the documentation to eBay...it was so obvious it was silly...you know what happened...both traders just changed their names and are back doing business again...boy that solved that problem didn't it...

If I create a place to do business I believe I owe it to my customers to provide a safe and honest place...turning a blind-eye to all of this is not the answer...either from eBay...nor from the rest of us who for the most part are honest...

Wabittwax · March 18, 2004 6:14AM

I've thought about what I would do if I was the owner of an old Mantle Pro Graded card. Sometimes I buy out collections and sometimes there is some oddball stuff (never a PRO graded card yet). I would probably not throw something like that in the trash because it is still 40+ years old and somebody would want it. If I did sell it in the PRO holder, I would go through the detailed story about PRO's reputation and that I felt the card was trimmed. I think though that I would lean to having PSA slab it as authenticated/trimmed. That would help prevent somebody from passing it off. Not fool proof, but it would help.

Ebay does need to control this though. They have implemented the PSA/DNA check for autographeds items to help prevent people from getting scammed. Why do they turn a blind eye to this though? It's the same scam. They should require a disclaimer to all PRO graded auctions stating that PRO does not authenticate items from being trimmed or altered.

Putty · March 18, 2004 6:39AM

Boopotts. there is more to consider in this situation. Last year when I first began collecting I purchased a card from this guy, when I received it, I was able to verify that it was trimmed. He allowed me to return the card no questions asked. I point out to him that the card was trimmed, he never acknowledged it, he simply refunded my money.

This guy knows his stuff is altered, and therin is the real problem. He is knowingly commiting fraud. There is no other way anyone can every justify the private feedback and the private auction. There is not one legitimate reason to utilize both.

Now I know this stuff happens every day, people do a little cover up work on houses, cars, anything of value to sell it and move on, knowing all along the product they are selling is crap.

This guy has been in business a very long time, he, just like many of us on these boards knows how to spot a fake or altered card. He knows what he is doing, buying cards altering them and then getting them graded at PRO. There is no planet, universe or dream world that considers PRO a respectable grading company. The seller also knows this of course because he is making his living this way. It may be a grey area now that allows this type of thing to happen legally, that will not always be the case. Sooner or later these things get enough attention to get resolved by legal action.

Sorry to be long-winded, but I have very little tolerance for ignoring this kind of stuff. People can no longer hide behind smoke and mirrors thinking that if they pretend nothing is wrong, it may go away or must not be wrong. I challenge anyone on these boards to continue to defend this guy, when you know full well if anything is going to destroy this hobby it is going to be companies like PRO, sellers like this and people who pretend it is ok.

Davino · March 18, 2004 6:53AM

<< "Pro" is all this scum sells. Hope he rots some place hot. >>

This is the focker that is known as GARY MOSER, BIG TIME TRIMMER, AND I DON'T MEAN C*NT!

Mantlefan · March 18, 2004 11:45AM

Well said Davino!

itsawonderfullife · March 18, 2004 1:44PM

Davino,

This Mantle auction isn't Moser's. He's an East Coast seller and I recall his eBay handle is www.neverpayforafullcard.com, erh, I mean www.neverpayfullprice.com.

WinPitcher · March 18, 2004 1:55PM

u never pay full price cuz the full card aint never there.....yeah i remm watching a t206 auction of fred clarke go down and this guy had one that was perfectly centered etc in a pro holder, card went for 240.00 which was about book i think. had nice color that is if the scan wasnt doctored.

the simple reason "it's allowed" is $$$$$

CON40 · March 18, 2004 2:15PM

I think these just slip through the cracks like gray market auctions... just legit enough to not arouse suspicion because it's not obvious to individuals outside the card collecting community (graded cards that is) that these cards are altered. To compound the problem further, not every card PRO slabs is altered (in fact, .03% of their grades are authentic!). And there are simply so many concurrent auctions on eBay, that to police 30-50 items up at any one time to determine if they are altered is a near impossible task.

My 2¢

Bearsnum34 · March 18, 2004 10:19PM

Like anything you do in life the more you research something the more you can be assurred of it meeting your approval. Let me give you aan example...for years I always had my eyes on a 55 topps set. So here I go...computer in hand with broadband, ebay all signed up, paypal verified, and a big savings account..I took to the airwaves better known as ebay and started bidding...I was too smart to read, I told my wife no worries I've been collecting cards since I was a kid, I have my beckett opened and I am ready....well I got that koufax at a good price...600.00, and I was off...then I saw the hodges in a pro holder, buy it now..WOW!!! I bagged it...150.00..its a 9..MINT baby!!..I told my wife look at me!!! I got the deal..Chest was all pumped out as If I had made the conquest of the century...
then one day I looked at a card coming up for auction..and I saw "psa" I was thinking to myself what is psa...I took the time to read..much to my surprise I was not aware of the changes that have taken place in the hobby. Well, I soon learned that Psa is what it is..I decided to be sure and made the decision to purchase only psa....Guess what...My hodges..it was trimmed...my heart sank, I was so bummed...my pumped out chest was no longer pumped out...I can't tell you how mad I was..not as much at the seller but at myself for not taking the time to research, I learned a lesson...my koufax wasn't trimmed..(thank G-D), but it will be sold because I picked up a nice psa 7 (from a fellow board member)...so it is simple, the hobby I loved as a kid is still something I love, it just has changed, some for the good and some for the bad...and the lessons we learn only make us smarter in the future...hopefully

shouldabeena10 · March 19, 2004 2:41AM

I always chime in on these threads because I believe that "these guys" are the biggest problem in our hobby today, and I have a feeling that we're all going to look back one day and wonder why we let them get away with it for so long.

Everyday these guys are buying up all of the mid grade star cards and trimming them up to resell in PRO holders. They are literally gutting the hobby of all of the decent centered PSA 5's, 6's, 7's and raw cards. If they continue at this pace, the day will come where there will only be a choice of very high grade or very low grade Mantles... and nothing in between (except for the big pile of nice looking "worthless" trimmed cards).

They are not slowing down, and they are making a ton of money doing it. I hear people say that "technically" they're not doing anything illegal... I disagree. It may be a legal "gray area" as to what card authentication really means, what trimming really means, and what a company can be held liable for.... but when you look past all of the smoke, it really boils down to a few con-artists that are KNOWINGLY deceiving the public to make money. The owners of PRO are not stupid, they know what they are doing. The sellers that buy, trim, submit and resell also know what they are doing. The last time I checked it was illegal to knowingly defraud people.

Let's even give them the benefit of the doubt for a minute. Let's say that they are just incompetent at grading and catching trimmed cards. Now, If I opened "The Vintage Paintings Grading Co." tomorrow ... and started "grading" Mona Lisa's and other fine works of art that sold for millions of dollars at auctions ..... and it turned out that "something was not right" with the paintings I had graded, (and they were not really worth the money people had spent on them).... how long do you think it would take for the FBI to be on my doorstep? The only difference here is that we are perceived as "grown men blowing too much money on old sportscards".

I hear some collectors say that buying a PRO graded card is just part of the "learning curve" for new collectors, or that PRO will eventually go out of business as collectors figure out what they are doing. I disagree again on both of these points. Just because someone is new and naive doesn't mean they should be able to get ripped off for a thousand bucks. And there are tons of new collectors rediscovering the hobby, ebay and graded cards everyday.... If anything, I'd say their market is growing.

And if you don't think it's effecting the hobby, then I'd say you are either as naive as the newbies, or you are in complete denial. EVERY DAY a number of these altered cards are sneaking their way into the mainstream holders that WE do collect. The newbies that buy these PRO cards, will eventually learn to crack and resubmit them.... or they will sell them to someone that will. PSA will look like a hockey goalie trying to slap these trimmed cards back as fast as they come in.... but some will get past them. I would bet that almost everyone on this board knows of at least one "altered card" that made it past PSA.

The ones that can't cross will be bought and resold as "raw mint gems" on ebay until the end of time, and it will look a lot like the card game "old maid", where everyone gets stuck with the bad card for a while until they can pass it along to the next person. There will never be enough honest saints in the hobby to pull out and "eat" all of these cards, so they are here to stay.

Every day we loose a few more vintage cards to the bad guys. For numbers sake, lets say there are only 10 trimmers out there, and each one is only trimming 3 cards a day. I'd bet it's more than that, but even at these low levels that will be another 11,000 bogus cards floating around by next year. How many more bogus Mantles will it take before collectors say... that's enough? How many nice looking Ex-Mt Mantels will be left when it's all over?

Unfortunately, there is currently no company or organization that is successfully stopping any of this from going on. Ebay and the card grading companies (are not/can not/will not) do anything to stop them. It's not in their best interest, and quite frankly, it's not their problem. It's our problem.

The way I see it, we have 2 choices. We can sit back and watch it unfold, or we can make some noise and try to do something about it. This site was set up to deal with problems like this:

Internet Fraud Complaint Center

I've always thought that one of these guys could turn up the heat a little if enough of us wrote letters or called.... I'd imagine that they would be very interested in a story like this, that involves con-artists making tens of thousands of dollars off unsuspecting people. I've certainly seen less expensive scams exposed on their shows before.

ABC's 20/20, Primetime, NightLine e-mail

e-mail to CBS show 48 hours

e-mail to Dateline at MSNBC

e-mail to CBS show 60 Minutes

Wouldn't it be great if the "one percenters" could actually make a difference in the hobby and look back someday and say, "We helped run those fools out of town!"

..... or I guess we could all just pull up a chair and play another round of Old Maid

Mike

HammeringHank · March 19, 2004 2:45AM

Mike:

That was an outstanding reply...gave me goosebumps reading it...right on!!!!!!

I think we should all start making some noise...lets get rid of these guys...including PRO!!!

iamthegreatcornholio · March 19, 2004 2:51AM

Great post Mike

poeandbb · March 19, 2004 3:31AM

Someone should run an auction to inform people about PRO. Oh yeah, I did that already!! Instead of just talking about, it would be nice to see people do something about it.

PRO Mantle "Auction"

MorrellMan · March 19, 2004 12:43PM

Mike - abso#$%inglutely right - there is no fine line here - it is fraud and it oughta be stopped. I tried e-mailing this thread to all those news agencies you listed, but I'm such a computer dork that they all failed - is there not someone, and, better yet, a whole bunch of someones, who can get the word out?

shouldabeena10 · April 6, 2004 6:50AM

HammeringHank,

I saw your new post and was going to respond... but I figured I'd just top this one instead. (two posts are better than one!)

I can't wait for the day where we don't have to read about t2inc, Pro, and the rest of the guys that are ruining the hobby.

TO: EVERYONE READING THIS THREAD......

Please take a few minutes and file some complaints using the links above. If you don't like to type... you can call them. You can mail them a letter too. Just do something before you assume everyone else will. The reason these guys are still around is because not enough of us have complained yet.

As you're reading this..... a beautiful vintage card is being destroyed. It can never be replaced, and is gone forever from the small pool of nice vintage cards that are left.

Join the "Save a Mantle" foundation today by pledging 5 minutes of your time file a complaint.

Mike

NewbietoPSA · April 6, 2004 7:17AM

Ebay allows it because ebay makes money from it. Why do you think the multimillion dollar white collar criminals get so little of punishment compared to the guy on the street mugging someone for 30 dollars. People in this country are also in awe of money, why else would someone as nasty of a personality as Donald Trump would be so admired, or a family so corrupt and morally handicapped as the Kennedy's be loved. It gotta be the money dog.

goodriddance189 · April 6, 2004 7:24AM

<< Ebay allows it because ebay makes money from it. Why do you think the multimillion dollar white collar criminals get so little of punishment compared to the guy on the street mugging someone for 30 dollars. People in this country are also in awe of money, why else would someone as nasty of a personality as Donald Trump would be so admired, or a family so corrupt and morally handicapped as the Kennedy's be loved. It gotta be the money dog. >>

best post of the week

jaybyrd · April 6, 2004 10:49AM

Mike - Just sent an e-mail to 20/20. Will let you know if and when I get a response. Thanks for the link. If enough of us will send them or another one of the news services an e-mail, who knows maybe we can do something about this. If we do nothing, we know what will happen... nothing. As long as E-bay is getting their fees, I seriously do not think they could give a rat's a**.

shouldabeena10 · April 7, 2004 11:52PM

jaybyrd

Thank You .... for helping to make a difference!!

Mike

Why is this allowed?

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