BGS...Koenig...Prisitine 10...again

Beachbum

As a modern collector, the sheer volume of suspicion grows heavier by the day.

As "moderncollector" on the BGS Boards I've staked my position clearly as to my total distrust of BGS, trimmers' company of choice and their official/unofficial 1/32nd inch rule which allows for "shrinkage".

Those of us who compete fairly in the marketplace that is Ebay are in a war with people who will take the limited investment dollars available for themselves by every means possible by tilting the field in their favor with Pristine 10's against your 9's .....and I don't think it is coincidence that we are looking at the same seller/s all the time.

Jason recntly put Koenig's name out there and we all know about the Prior fiasco that is Kevin Burge's card from last summer. WE can all sit idly by.....or what?????

Here is my link to this discussion on BGS Boards, where I've told you we are more forceful than this board in taking notice and ..............


moderncollector's link

Jmnesq

Just another reason not to use BGS and to avoid their product.

DeutscherGeist

Why is BGS considered part of the big 4 if it is known for trimmers' paradise? Why do BGS cards sell for more $ than PSA ones of the same card?

I know about the Prior incident. How obvious does one have to get? Why couldn't BGS just buy that card back, give the owner the money and then burn the card like a reputable company should do. It reflects poorly on BGS for not standing behind their product. This is why I don't submit there.

As for PSA, they did a nice job of buying back all those counterfeit McGwire rookies that were slabbed in error (the grader missed the fact they were counterfeit cards). They took those cards off the market and compensated whoever had them at the time. If PSA did not do that, then there is no value in getting cards graded. I do a wonderful job of grading my own cards and buying what appeals to me, thank you. Don't need a slab to tell me what is nice and what isn't.

I have said it once and I will say it again: Slabbed cards are nice because one can safely buy and sell on ebay. Other than that, I have no use for it. I don't slab any card in my permanent collection unless it was bought that way in the first place.

wallst32

BGS will continue to get away with this for a while based soley on reputation. How long does it take a collector to boycott PRO for the same reason?

Now that the 1/32" rule is more well known, it is just a matter of time before people start snapping up BGS 9.0s and trying to turn them into 9.5s and 10s. But even if this were to happen, I don't know if it would be enough to turn people away from BGS.

I only scanned the BGS board thread, but there is an interesting point about it being BGS's problem and not the trimmer's. I will have to agree with this since what the trimmer is doing still fits under BGS' s criteria (this is the flaw). It's no different than buying a beat up car or house and fixing it up and selling it for more. People would have no reason to "destroy" more and more legit cards unless BGS or PRO gave them an incentive to.

CON40

Plunking down major dollars for any modern graded card is folly in itself, but if one is prone to do it, then by all means look to the cards that PSA or GAI have graded. Beckett only got into the graded card business to avoid losing market share in price guides and to throw its formidable weight into an emerging market (graded cards) it hopes to exploit.

The mere fact that they list BGS cards as having more value than the PSA, SGC, or GAI counterparts is proof of a conflict of interest. But therin lies the rub. Once Beckett started accepting the advertising dollars of the card companies, they lost all credibility to true, inteligent collectors.

They have simply become a mouthpiece for the stated prices the card companies request for their cards in order to create hype for their products. Beckett learned from this and pulls the same cr@p to hype their own products -- graded cards!

If you are a savvy collector, you'll stay away, far away, from anything that graces the name of the dishonorable Dr. James Beckett!

My 2¢

poeandbb

the grader missed the fact they were counterfeit cards

You mean graders right? Because as we all know, PSA insists that a minimum of two graders look at each card. Does anyone else see this as blatantly untrue?

CON40

You mean graders right? Because as we all know, PSA insists that a minimum of two graders look at each card. Does anyone else see this as blatantly untrue?


Just proves that graders are not machines... at least PSA stepped up and admitted as much and made amends to those who were victimized by the mistake. Can you really ask for more than that?

poeandbb

Try this: Post an auction with the title "BGS Mantle or Jordan." Something to that effect. Then explain in your auction the problems that you have seen with BGS. This is a good way to get your message out. Maybe someone will do this with PSA.

CON40

poeandbb;

Don't know what your after here... why would someone do a listing like this with PSA? For the most part, their grading seems spot on in terms of trimming and authenticity. Maybe their holders get tampered with, and that is a third party threat that PSA must deal with, but they seem to do a decent job with grading.

On the other hand, I have been taken on a BGS card three times. I cracked them to cross to PSA only to have them rejected due to trimming. And one of them was a 1994 SP Arod in BGS 9. (Sure enough, it had a wavy edge.) That's one of those that Beckett lists with a huge premium over its PSA, SGC, etc counterparts!

Why pay a premium for a card that comes with the risk of being altered yet slabbed? PSA cannot lay claim to that!

poeandbb

Con40,
BGS cards are listed for more in their price guide because they consistently, if not always sell for more. This is for modern of course. I never saw what BGS did that PSA didn't do. PSA is full of conlfict of interests. I won't get into any, but they are quite obvious if compared to what BGS does. I would agree that PSA can spot counter. and trimming. My beef is lack of consistency considering they supposedly have two graders looking at each card. There are too many people who resubmit and get higher grades. This means that both graders agreed that the card should be bumped. I can' t see how people don't have a problem with this. The price difference in vintage stars from a 6 to a 7 or a 7 to an 8 is massive. The whole resubmitting of cards just reeks of hypocrisy. All of the pro-PSA'ers seem to chant "# 1 in the industry." But when they get a grade they are not satisfied with, they resubmit it. Wouldn't you be a bit miffed if you bought a 59 Mantle in an 8 and then found out it was a 7 at one time? That is what burns me about PSA. They are so inconsisten that you can send cards back and get different grades, higher and lower. This is laughable. All this with two graders seeing each card, right.

poeandbb

It seems that all of the grading companies have something wrong with them. BGS and PRO seem to be the worst. I have zero respect for either of them. It just seems that people are willing to overlook PSA's shortcomings as long as they get the grade they want.

Woodson28Fan

I've got to say that the ENTIRE grading scence is disheartening. I used to be a big Beckett supporter, but more and more things have come to light. As for PSA, I'm still not convinced that a considerable amount of tampering isn't going on with their cases. It seems too many people who have major investments in either PSA or BGS are all too quick to sweep things relating to both of these companies under the carpet. Whatever the case may be (no pun intended), there is a significant doubt - at least in my mind - about the practices of both of these major companies. Now, throw in the fact that I'm scared to death to buy a noteworthy raw card because of the amount of raw cards floating around that have been tampered with and rejected by these companies. It looks like the collector can't trust a PSA or BGS card and defintely would be ill-advised to buy a raw card. This is the biggest story about the market that isn't getting told...or at least isn't getting the headlines it deserves.

CON40

I won't get into any, but they are quite obvious...

Please point these out as they are not obvious to me! I would enjoy a factual diatribe!

They are so inconsisten that you can send cards back and get different grades, higher and lower.

For the high percentage of submissions this is not true, but it does happen on a regular basis. Several things account for this.

1) Different graders will have slightly different standards. Not a great thing for sure, but grading is a subjective skill guided by objective criteria. Any grading company that uses more than one person (or team) has the same shortcoming. Until computers start grading cards, this will persist in some pmanner. Deal with it.

2) What separates a high-end 7 from a low-end 8? It's a hairline. As collectors, we always look to "max" grade when submitting because of the increased dollar value. Graders can lean one way or another. I don't think they care about what the SMR for each grade is. They are just doing a job.

Your post sounds like a guy who's got sour grapes over some submissions that didn't meet your expectations.

CON40

I agree that tampering with holders is a potentially huge problem for the health of graded card collecting. Still, it's better than no grading! Imagine trusting anyone online with their personal grading standards! And you complain about PSA grading standards!

But, blaming a grading company for this problem is akin to blaming automakers for auto theft, or house builders for home burglary, or the US Treasury for counterfeiting. Yet, we still have money, live in homes and buy cars. Most people are not deterred by crime. We just become more savvy to deal with being affected by it. Wherever money can be made fraudulently, human greed will motivate individuals to conquer safeguards for personal gain.

I am confident that PSA is well aware of this tampering problem and will eventually introduce further enhancements to decrease (but not eliminate) holder tampering. I hope they do it sooner than later, before the hobby suffers irreperable damage. In that, I agree with you.

If you really want to do something about tampering, don't bellyache on this forum, write Joe Orlando, Beckett, Tuff Stuff, SCD, eBay, the FBI and any other influential outlet that can help stem this crimewave.

Woodson28Fan

I think people are well within their rights to discuss this issue on this forum. It's relevant and current. The fact of the matter is that, as it stands now, I can't look at a PSA card and not have my doubts as to whether it was at one time tampered with by someone along the chain. I know from reading the posts on here for sometime that many PSA supporters have legitimate apprehension about BGS services, for what appears to be good reason. You are right about considering the alternative...raw cards are too high risk to buy from someone else. The problem for someone like me is this. Even though I consider myself more of a collector than an investor, I still want my collection to be regarded as legit somewhere down the line. I don't want doubts cast on it. What's more important is that I also want the peace of mind that I have purchased a legit card.

On a side note, I'm wondering if anyone has heard of tampering going on with uncirculated cards. It seems that there would be little motivation to do this - and in some cases, the system of controls seems like it would deter this. Just curious if this is the next avenue for dishonest people.

poeandbb

Woodson,
I think you make some good points. I personally have given up on graded cards based on what I've read on this forum. As soon as I started to see comments about successful resubmitting I just up and quit. I was working on a rookie of every HOFer from 51 and on in PSA 7. I was about 3/4 of the way done. I finally said "screw it" once I realized that the PSA 7's I was buying could have been someone else's 6's. I've had people buy graded #'d rookies from me in PSA 8 and 9 and then a month or so later I see them on ebay in PSA 9 or 10. That was enough for me.

Con40,
PSA's mistake in the WIWAG situation was not making a better holder after this occurred. BGS and SGC both have superior holders. PSA may be # 1 in grading but they are # 3 in best case. Feel free to PM me if you would like to discuss other points.

CON40

The fact of the matter is that, as it stands now, I can't look at a PSA card and not have my doubts as to whether it was at one time tampered with by someone along the chain.

I feel that concern too. But, the risk is nothing compared to looking at a beautiful raw card and wondering if it is honestly authentic in every way! Never mind if that raw card is on ebay!

I wish PSA did have a better resolution for WIWAG, but I'm sure that's still ongoing and we haven't seen improvements yet. I am optimistic that more security will emerge at the conclusion of legal action. Changing holders (especially if it affects size and shape) is a major undertaking that most likely will take months to develop if PSA really wants to get a few steps ahead of the tampering crowd.

Maybe PSA does have the #3 holder. But are we sure that SGC and BGS holders have not been tampered as well? I don't think anyone can conclusively say no. My guess is they have all been tampered with to some degree, but since PSA is the leader in volume, it only stands to reason that the problem would emerge in their product first!

Beachbum

I know all the scandals now and my product of choice for honesty, if certanly not for partiality is PSA.

Trimmers know that PSA won't tolerate shaved cards and are more likely to reject than take chances.

My grades are certainly harsh from PSA though I think there is something to who the submitter may be.

All in all, I say PSA is the last on the list of card trimmers which makes them first in my list for submissions and respect.

poeandbb

BBum,
That makes sense to a degree. If a person is going to collect cards, the best thing is to go graded. Though PSA is far from perfect and barely the best, they are the better of the big 4. I personally chose to stop buying graded PSA cards because of their pathetic resubmission record. I think GAI may be equal if not better in qualifications to grade. More people use PSA though because of their name.

BowChromeProspects

Look people...PSA is no better at catching trimmers than BGS is...for every BGS trimmed card, there is the same amount of PSA trimmed cards...FACT IS, THERE IS NOTHING WE CAN DO! Unless, someone wants to press some kind of legal charges.

SDavid

I wonder what PSA does when they catch multiple trimmed cards on more than one submission from the same person. I would hope that they ban them from their service.

One time a while back I noticed an ebayer had numerous gem BGS cards for sale. They obviously all came from the same submission. When scrolling through his submission on the beckett site, I found TONS of 0.0's. Almost all of the rest were 9.5's and 10's. Don't you think a lightbulb would have gone off in their head? A few months later, I checked his auctions and then his submission results and saw the same thing.

Regarding PSA, I've seen the most inconsistency with their modern cards. It makes me wonder if they have their least experienced graders handling those cards. I can understand inconsistency at the 9/10 level...that's obviously the toughest call to make...but I've seen modern 8's that should have been 6's or low-end 7's. That shouldn't happen.

Speaking of inconsistency, I've always been tempted to buy 100 psa 9's of various value and re-submit them just to see what the hit ration would be. Maybe that's what some of these ebay powersellers should do instead of busting wax/factory sets.

CADILLACN97

CON40, i agree with everything you said. why does beckett need to create a monopoly on the whole card collecting market? why do their graded cards value higher in their magazines? not only do they grade cards, but they make the prices (which by far are not real world prices). your card is worth what someone will pay for it, not by what beckett says.

believe it or not, psa has more than one grader. one grader will see things different than another. what, do people think that their cards are the only ones they are grading? get real. its more than some cat just sitting in a chair smoking a cigarette looking at a card thru a magnifying glass.

how many cards has psa slabbed? over 7 million? i would like to know how many bgs has slabbed. the fault ratio is probably the same, yet psa has graded how many millions more? if you said that 210,000 psa slabbed cards are slabbed incorrectly, it is still only 3% of the total psa population.

for psa to create a new slab, they would have to reslab the same 7 million cards for free. does this make any sense from a business standpoint? do you think people are willing to pay to reslab their cards in a new, safer holder? i doubt it.

if you don't like a car, don't drive it. if you don't like psa's service, don't use it. it's that simple. and just remember this is a PSA forum.

BowChromeProspects

<< <i>I wonder what PSA does when they catch multiple trimmed cards on more than one submission from the same person. I would hope that they ban them from their service.

One time a while back I noticed an ebayer had numerous gem BGS cards for sale. They obviously all came from the same submission. When scrolling through his submission on the beckett site, I found TONS of 0.0's. Almost all of the rest were 9.5's and 10's. Don't you think a lightbulb would have gone off in their head? A few months later, I checked his auctions and then his submission results and saw the same thing.

Regarding PSA, I've seen the most inconsistency with their modern cards. It makes me wonder if they have their least experienced graders handling those cards. I can understand inconsistency at the 9/10 level...that's obviously the toughest call to make...but I've seen modern 8's that should have been 6's or low-end 7's. That shouldn't happen.

Speaking of inconsistency, I've always been tempted to buy 100 psa 9's of various value and re-submit them just to see what the hit ration would be. Maybe that's what some of these ebay powersellers should do instead of busting wax/factory sets. >>




PSA does the same thing.

KallMaloneSay

I've heard of people being banned by PSA for too many Evid Trimming results. Those people usually then go to Beckett grading. I don't have names or much info, just what I've heard from friends of those banned.

For BGS to not completely ban Kevin Burge after the Prior Short Elbow incident is the most telling sign that BGS will gladly allow you to trim cards and submit through them and shows absolutely no class for BGS to not publicly state what their take is on the situation at least on their own message boards to try and clear their name from this.
Jason

KallMaloneSay

Look people...PSA is no better at catching trimmers than BGS is...for every BGS trimmed card, there is the same amount of PSA trimmed cards...

Sorry there BCP, but you are way off the mark on this one. Just look at the integrity of BGS vintage graded cards or OPC Hockey cards, BGS admits to grading trimmed/sheet cut cards from those years which PSA does not. Modern is no different, and everyone who is involved well in grading and the show circuit knows this. I'm not saying there are no PSA trimmed cards, that would be a ludicrous statement that even Joe Orlando couldn't make, but they have much more experienced graders and they will deny a card at the first sign of foul play. I've even had a few "Evidence of Trimming" returns from cards straight out of a pack, so they really don't take chances if they see something fishy.
Jason