Home Trading Cards & Memorabilia Forum

BLASPHEMY: There is a market for PRO graded cards...

...and it isn't necessarily just to pawn off trimmed, altered, or counterfeit cards.

PRO's grading standards are obviously loose when compared to PSA. Almost all rational thought would tell you that is a good thing for PSA and those who collect cards graded by them. However, in my opinion, strictness in grading blurs the line between how a card really looks versus how perfect or imperfect it may be under intense examination. Strict grading, such as PSA's, has relegated thousands or millions of very nice looking cards to "worthless" or "undesirable" status, despite the fact that most human eyes cannot tell the difference between a PSA 7, 8, 9, or 10.

For example, someone on this board recently mentioned how 1975 Topps commons in PSA 8 condition routinely sell for less than the grading fee. For cards made AFTER 1975 it only gets worse. But a PSA 8 card is a VERY NICE LOOKING card, and to be considered worthless or undesirable simply because of an assigned grade is a very sad thing for our hobby. We're talking about a card that is probably in the exact same, very nice condition in 2004 as it was on the day it was produced in 1975, but none of that matters because it's not a PSA 9. This is akin to you thinking a woman is beautiful until you hear what Fabio thinks about her. If he says she's ugly, then you all-of-the-sudden become uninterested even though when you continue to look at her you still think she's beautiful. Who loses? You certainly do, although the same can't be said for her. She'll find someone who appreciates her despite what others may think. As for Fabio, while he certainly has experience with beautiful women, why is he more qualified to judge than you? If you like the woman, should it matter what he thinks? No. The only time you should worry about what Fabio thinks is when he tells you that beautiful woman is really a man. Then, he's helpful. Having an expert tell you something like that will save you a whole bunch of anxiety in the future.

So Fabio has his place, as does PSA, but we must be careful not to become too reliant on either him or PSA. Outfits like PRO, who, if you look beyond the grading of altered cards, seem to do a reasonably good job in at least giving an overall good feel for the eye appeal of a card, without resorting to 10x magnification and nitpicking over virtually invisible surface creases. If a card looks good from just looking at it with your unaided eyes, and it's authentic, then that's what should matter the most. 10, 9, 8, 7, it really doesn't matter. They're all good.

Comments

  • calleochocalleocho Posts: 1,569 ✭✭
    PRO has no place in the hobby.


    "Women should be obscene and not heard. "
    Groucho Marx
  • WinPitcherWinPitcher Posts: 27,726 ✭✭✭
    I think a PSA 8 75 topps is under valued at the present, however that does not mean that, that will be the case forever. A psa 8 75 topps (well centered) is a nice card and if I was into putting a set together I would most definetly put my money there. I am lucky enuff to have a raw set that would most def grade out at 8. Bought in 75 for what today would be considered peanuts. In my case I see no reason to pay grading fees. In the above poster case though I would suggest you get as many *'z as you can find.

    my opinion

    edited to fix a typo * was meant to be 8
    Good for you.
  • I think these threads should be limited to 50 words if you have nothing to say.
  • jrinckjrinck Posts: 1,321 ✭✭


    << <i>I think these threads should be limited to 50 words if you have nothing to say. >>



    Hey, it's just an opinion! (word count, not including this parenthesised word count: 6, including "it's" as two words in order to make the word count higher without technically making it so, thereby reducing the amount of time necessary to read the post.)
  • mikeschmidtmikeschmidt Posts: 5,756 ✭✭✭
    Flip Side / Devil's Advocate:


    Roger from 4 Sharp Corners is currently selling on Ebay 1980s minor star cards in PSA 10 for $3 with a BIN of $5. I think as modern cards continue to proliferate in graded form, more and more people will discount the "value" of modern PSA 8s (let's just say 1980 and after), and they will largely get dumped/discarded into the dollar bins....

    MS
    I am actively buying MIKE SCHMIDT gem mint baseball cards. Also looking for any 19th century cabinets of Philadephia Nationals. Please PM with additional details.
  • "The only time you should worry about what Fabio thinks is when he tells you that beautiful woman is really a man. Then, he's helpful."

    I don't know where your analogy came from, but I'm LMAO.
  • CON40CON40 Posts: 1,324 ✭✭✭
    IMHO, this guy obviously sells PRO graded gems of altered, trimmed, ironed, soaked, bleached, recolored, resurfaced, repapered, doctored, pressed, de-creased, and de-blemished sports cards. BUT, they all have tremendous eye appeal!

    image
  • Stone193Stone193 Posts: 24,407 ✭✭✭✭✭
    jrinck
    I'm not totally comfortable with your analogy:
    1. The assessment of Beauty is Subjective and Relative in it's application.
    2. The assessment of card grade is Objective and Scientific in it's application (in theory), although overall eye appeal of the card is taken into consideration.
    Some unsuspecting person will buy a PRO 10 without an understanding of your relative interpretation of the beauty in card grading and eventually will be disappointed and the hobby may be out another patron (which in my opinion it can ill afford).
    Just my 2 cents - hard to stay under 50 words. image
    Mike
    Mike
  • NickMNickM Posts: 4,895 ✭✭✭
    The dollar bins effect is already happening. I've picked up '86-'87 Fleer basketball common PSA 8s and a '81 Topps Raines rookie PSA 8 for 50 cents apiece from a show dealer who wanted to get rid of his dollar bin. He even had a pair of '75 Topps baseball PSA 8 commons (granted, the holders were badly scratched) in his dollar bin one time.

    Even PSA 8s of expensive modern rookies sell for significantly less than the same card does raw.

    Dealer storage space is a huge part of the reason why modern PSA 8s will sell cheaply. Each PSA card takes up the space of several cards in CardSavers, and thereby means that much less inventory can be brought or stored.

    Nick
    image
    Reap the whirlwind.

    Need to buy something for the wife or girlfriend? Check out Vintage Designer Clothing.
  • PRO holders are pretty sturdy pieces plastic, if you put enough of them together, wrap them with duct tape, place them in a pillow case, go out on the street, wack unsuspecting citizens in the head and take their money it is nearly the same means to an end if you sold them on ebay.

    PRO and the people who submit their doctored garbage to them are dangerous to the credibility of this hobby. it's only a matter of time before some t.v. news magazine blows the lid off this scam and the feds are forced to take action.

    i can't go as far as saying that people who buy PRO get what they deserve. with the growing popularity of EBAY there is a seemingly endless stream of "newbies" that will be taken advantage of.

    FRIENDS DON'T LET FRIENDS BUY PRO .
  • WinPitcherWinPitcher Posts: 27,726 ✭✭✭
    And HI that is sad....image
    Good for you.
  • jrinckjrinck Posts: 1,321 ✭✭
    Maybe I shouldn't have used PRO in my example, but the point I was trying to make with them was that aside from their holdering of suspect cards, the overall condition of the card seems to be graded reasonably. Maybe I should have used BCCG as the example. Nobody that I know of has accused them of holdering altered cards, and their grading standards aren't as strict. The knock against them is that they use the 1-10 scale, which can only confuse newbie buyers who compare BCCG grades with PSA.

    If I were to start a grading company it would have a much looser grading scale that focused primarily on eye appeal versus minor imperfections that are only visible under extreme magnification, while at the same time making sure the cards aren't altered or counterfeit; and I WOULD NOT use a numeric grading scale that is in anyway similar to one already in use by any of the top-tier grading companies.

    The way I look at it, people will still send to PSA first, but if they don't get the grades they expect based solely on miniscule imperfections visible at 10X magnification, then they can submit to me and I'll judge based solely on eye appeal. Prices realized on Rinck Graded cards will certainly not be on par with high-end PSA prices such as for PSA 8, 9, and 10, but hopefully more than for PSA 6 or 7, which seems to be the kiss-of-death grade for virtually any card other than vintage stars.

    Why should a stunningly beautiful card be considered worthless due to a PSA 6 label that is only there because of some barely perceptible reverse surface wrinkle; and that without such wrinkle would be a PSA 9 or 10?
  • WinPitcherWinPitcher Posts: 27,726 ✭✭✭
    I dunno abt that jrinck either, last yr i bought my first and only PRO card a 1952 Bowman Reese nmnt7 card had a crease that couldn't be seen in the scan luckily for me the card wasnt trimmed, just grossly overgraded, i sold that card on ebat despite the fact that in my description I said everything about the card! almost daring someone to buy it....the feedback i got? guy said worth every penny in caps!


    edited to say
    the crease was across the entire center of the card and on the back too......corners were ex/mnt at best
    Good for you.
  • I know what you mean jrinck. A few months ago I submitted a beautiful '63 Topps Mays that I thought was definitely an 8 and about a 75% chance at a 9. I mean this card was just about perfect. It came back a 5 because of a tiny wrinkle I missed less than 3/16 inch long on the front. You could only see it in perfect lighting. Otherwise this card was 9 quality but since it got a 5 this otherwise beautiful card would only get you about 60 bucks on ebay.
  • I agree with the guy who said "there is no place in the hobby for cards in a PRO holder". The cards are always trimmed waiting for an unsuspecting rookie collector. It's not right!
    Mike Miller
    Yankee Collector 1958-60
    Retired complete 1960 Topps set
Sign In or Register to comment.