I didn't read the responses, so my opinion might duplicate others. To me, it doesn't matter if the coin is the first strike or not. What is happening is the publicity is good for the hobby. Many people will read or hear the story and will become interested in seeing what they have or what grandma has is worth. The story is priceless in terms of positive press for the hobby.
Spring National Battlefield Coin Show is April 3-5, 2025 at the Eisenhower Hotel Ballroom, Gettysburg, PA. WWW.AmericasCoinShows.com
If those assumptions are made [and they aren't very farfetched], then by the process of elimination the coin must be the first struck since there are no others that qualify! >>
TDN Thats also assuming that the first dollar ever struck still exists! Maybe the first 94 is in some basement wall somewhere, just waiting to be discovered. If that's the case, Contursi can only claim that he has the earliest strike known. That would be more realistic ( and certainly worth crowing about).
Contursi can crow about it all he wants. Big deal. When the coin was sold in the Carter auction, everyone knew it was the earliest strike known, and the finest known specimen. Do you think there weren't any numismatists twenty years ago who were smart enough to know anything about die states or quality? The coin is fabulous; the hype is not.
To sum up this thread, all the "experts" have spoken, but have not yet established that the Carter 1794 is the FIRST STRUCK silver dollar, and I do not believe they ever will. The experts can only present what is known and documented. But then again everything was not well documented at the US Mint.
I still say the PROPHETS are simply looking for PROFITS.
The main PROPHET in this story should donate the Carter 1794 to the Smithsonian, since as he puts it, it is a" NATIONAL TREASURE ". I agree the Carter 1794 is an early die state, high grade specimen, no more and no less. It is a fabulous coin and worth a certain amount of dollars, not the hyped up, false, amount of 10 million which only stems from greed.
By the way, who can say for certain, that the first struck silver dollar is in high grade condition. Why could'nt it be in very fine condition, or maybe lost forever ????
Enough of the self serving hype. I, for one, am sick of it and it seriously detracts from the hobby.
To sum up this thread, all the "experts" have spoken, but have not yet established that the Carter 1794 is the FIRST STRUCK silver dollar, and I do not believe they ever will.
True. One of the leading experts in the area of 1794 Dollars, Cardinal, stated in this thread that nobody has definitively proven the Carter specimen's first strike status. That being said, do you think that this coin will eventually be sold as "America's First Silver Dollar". I do. I predict that it will be someone like Bill Gates or the owner of a major league sports franchise. Whoever buys the hype will be paying too much, imho, and that was my point when I started this thread. Nuff said.
PS - zerbe, I like your idea about the Smithsonian.....right next to the copper die trial.
"Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you." -Luke 11:9
"Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD: And thou shalt love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might." -Deut. 6:4-5
"For the LORD is our judge, the LORD is our lawgiver, the LORD is our king; He will save us." -Isaiah 33:22
Really good points made all the way around on this thread. This is good stuff. I knew of the copper trial strikes as well. The claim is for the first "silver" dollar.
<< <i>I knew of the copper trial strikes as well. The claim is for the first "silver" dollar. >>
TBig, as has been pointed out in one or more of the scattered threads on this topic, such a claim should rightly go to whichever silver Continental Dollar was first struck, not to a 1794 dollar.
Cardinal's discussion of die states, etc. earlier in this thread is perhaps the most scholarly and interesting post I have ever read on these boards. Cardinal does not post often, but his posts are all must reads and certainly inspire me to learn more about what I collect. Thanks, Cardinal.
What everyone has seemed to gloss over is the fact that Cardinal admitted in this thread that the Carter 1794 cannot be positively identified as America's first silver dollar. However, the coin seems to have retained that esteemed title. My conclusion is Carter coin is one of the top 2 examples known in terms of condition, was an early strike and is, without a doubt, a true national treasure.
I am remiss in the fact that I was not aware of the 3 die states and did not bother to check. I learned something new and am pleased with the knowledge gained through this thread. Someone asked "how many 1794 dollars have you handled?". Well, on a daily basis I buy and sell coins that range in price from $5 up to $500 and occassionally we will handle coins up to $10,000 or so. That pretty much eliminates the possibility of us "stocking" any 1794 dollars. I have, however, examined 3 different 1794 dollars at shows over the past 5 years. They were all circulated coins (VG-VF) and had problems, and I really got a rush from the close-up exposure. But all of this really means little when it comes to the debate regarding the Carter specimen's first strike status. How many 1794 dollars you have examined or how extensive your research on 1794 dollars has been does not solve the mystery. Sure you can unravel it a bit, but not solve it. This is really a matter of commonsense and logic and anyone can partcipate in the debate, regardless of numismatic knowledge.
My only discontent is the manner in which so many "top experts" jumped on the "first strike" band wagon without conclusive, irrefutable proof of first strike status.
<< <i>My only discontent is the manner in which so many "top experts" jumped on the "first strike" band wagon without conclusive, irrefutable proof of first strike status. >>
Jade, I have heard of only a select few "top experts" "jumping on the first strike band wagon" (I don't count silly, spoon-fed, over-hyped national news stories as expert opinions). To whom are you referring as being among "so many"?
Posts: 20 Joined: Dec 2002 Thursday March 18, 2004 6:46 AM (NEW!)
Michael Dixon wrote: "The story is priceless in terms of positive press for the hobby."
Halfsense wrote, Finally, another person who sees the big picture and the hobby/marketplace potential. Thank you. -donn-
Halfsense, For people who live in a cave, the story is good press. For people who truely know coins and know the 'players' who deliberately use baseless hype to sell their coins for a bigger profit, it is extremely bad press. If you would open your eyes fully and not be led like sheep to the slaughter, you would see that certain people in the COIN INDUSTRY are primarily in the COIN BUSINESS, for profit and profit only. It does not take long to determine which people in the COIN INDUSTRY care about coins and coin collectors and which ones care about money and money and money.
If the people involved in this fictional story of the first struck dollar are to profit by millions of dollars because they have artifically created a unique coin, by their "expertise " based on conjecture, then everybody loses, especially the person who would eventually purchase, what I will now label as the " PHOPHESY COIN ".
You have to learn which is good hype and which is bad hype. If you want me to believe that all hype is good and positve, then I am sorry I missed having a toast with JIM JONES.
pqgold, you are right on the money with your post.
Jade, I have heard of only a select few "top experts" "jumping on the first strike band wagon" (I don't count silly, spoon-fed, over-hyped national news stories as expert opinions). To whom are you referring as being among "so many"?
Coinguy1, I would name 3 right here, but I would probably get banned again. Just read the links to the AP stories. But you are correct, I should have said "the 3 or 4" and not "so many". Actually, several experts have correctly stated in the press that the coin is a very early strike, but it could never be proven that it was the first coin struck. To me, those guys are the real experts. Correction made.
Logic dictates that this could be the first coin struck in silver, but could also be the second coin struck in silver, or it could be the 1,759th coin struck in silver (but from a new die).
We know that the mint was striking a new coin, of a new denomination, for the first time, possibly on a press that had not been set up before. It makes sense that they would have struck a few trial pieces before the regular run on October 15, 1794 to see how they looked and to test the press. We know that a copper pattern or trial specimen was struck, apparently from the same die state. The Neil/Carter coin was struck on an adjusted planchet with a silver plug. We do not know of any other 1794 dollars with a silver plug, and we know that the silver plug was used on some dollars in 1795. That planchet may not have been intended as a business strike–it could have been a trial planchet and could have been used for a trial strike. But they may also have tried one or more trial strikes on the regular planchet, the fate of which is/are not known. Which was struck first?
Cardinal says that the Neil/Carter is the only Die State I coin known. That would seem to indicate that the dies clashed very early on in the process. Could the silver plug planchet have been blamed for “feeding” problems? If so, they could have discontinued use of the plugged planchet, switched to the regular planchet, struck a run, noticed that they were not struck evenly (due to the dies having been knocked out of level when clashed?), relapped and realigned the dies, with the result being a lapped but more evenly struck coin like the Bass coin.
Final possibility. Could there have been two 1794 dies? If so, could the second die have been used after the 1794s were struck, possibly even in 1795, to test the silver plug planchet-thus creating the Neil/Carter coin? But would we see detectible differences between coins struck from two different dies even if the engraver tried his best to make them identical?
Who cares if it was the first one struck, having the coin in the best condition seems to be of more importance to me. --------------------------------BigE
Final possibility. Could there have been two 1794 dies? If so, could the second die have been used after the 1794s were struck, possibly even in 1795, to test the silver plug planchet-thus creating the Neil/Carter coin? But would we see detectible differences between coins struck from two different dies even if the engraver tried his best to make them identical?
All of the early silver dollars were struck from hand made dies. In several instances (dollars dated 1799 especially), the engravers made the dies EXTREMELY similar. However, the differences ARE detectable upon careful examination. In the case of 1794 dollars, all study to date points to there have been just one single set of dies used for the entire mintage.
Regarding the silver Continental dollars, I must admit I know rather little about Colonial coinage. Were these actually struck under the legislative authority of the United States of America federal government? Perhaps someone could clarify this.
From what I've read, the Mint Act of April 2, 1792 seems to me to be the piece of legislation that first officially established the U.S. Mint in Philadelphia and legislated the production of dollar coins of specified purity of silver. Clearly, the Continental dollars were not struck under the authority of the Mint Act of 1792, as their production pre-dated the Act. So, it seems to me, the Flowing Hair Silver Dollars dated 1794 were the first silver dollar coins struck under the official authority of the Act.
As a novice I would add one thought on this subject. The planchet and adjustment marks that concern some really could be attributed to a very early strike (who knows what was first). Given the coins were all struck in a very short timeframe, they were probably just trying to get the first large coin minted successfully and not concerned with making the first one (or few) beautiful. The early die state is the key to me from a logic perspective.
It is a gorgeous coin that should be in the Smithsonian. The data would suggest that of all surviving coins it was the first minted IMHO.
Thanks for all the posts from the true expers as this is what makes this forum so great!
Retired United States Mint guy, now working on an Everyman Type Set.
Cardinal: comparing the pictures of your coin and the Carter coin, it appears to me that the curl detail on your coin is more extensive than the Carter coin. I see areas of missing detail on the Carter coin that lead me to believe the die was perhaps lapped more than once? Certainly a coin as well struck as the Carter coin should show at least as much, if not more, detail than yours.
Perhaps there are actually 5 die states.... yours is die state II and the Carter coin is die state III and the Bass coin is die state V.
Michael Dixon said: " I didn't read the responses, so my opinion might duplicate others. To me, it doesn't matter if the coin is the first strike or not. What is happening is the publicity is good for the hobby. Many people will read or hear the story and will become interested in seeing what they have or what grandma has is worth. The story is priceless in terms of positive press for the hobby."
I'm the Proud recipient of a genuine "you suck" award dated 1/24/05. I was accepted into the "Circle of Trust" on 3/9/09.
Whether you believe it is THE first, one of the first, the last, one of the last or smack dab in the middle, I think we can ALL agree that the Carter dollar is one spectacular coin.
When it was at PCGS last year, John Miller (Wayne's son) and I took a couple of photos, which I thought I'd share with you.
The good news: They're big and high rez, and suitable for desktop use or even a decent sized print.
The bad news: They're big and high rez, and if you ain't got DSL or cable, you may have a wait while they download.
Cut and paste the following addresses into your browser, and we hope you enjoy. :-)
For people who live in a cave, the story is good press. For people who truely know coins and know the 'players' who deliberately use baseless hype to sell their coins for a bigger profit, it is extremely bad press. If you would open your eyes fully and not be led like sheep to the slaughter, you would see that certain people in the COIN INDUSTRY are primarily in the COIN BUSINESS, for profit and profit only. It does not take long to determine which people in the COIN INDUSTRY care about coins and coin collectors and which ones care about money and money and money.
If the people involved in this fictional story of the first struck dollar are to profit by millions of dollars because they have artifically created a unique coin, by their "expertise " based on conjecture, then everybody loses, especially the person who would eventually purchase, what I will now label as the " PHOPHESY COIN ".
You have to learn which is good hype and which is bad hype. If you want me to believe that all hype is good and positve, then I am sorry I missed having a toast with JIM JONES.
As Cher said in MOONSTRUCK, "SNAP OUT OF IT "
AMEN PQGOLD!!!
Mojo
"I am the wilderness that is lost in man." -Jim Morrison- Mr. Mojorizn
After viewing the high resolution obverse and making careful comparison on the hair detail in the left field to Cardinal's wonderful coin, I wonder if the Cardinal specimen is an earlier die state than the Carter specimen. Minute details are missing on the better struck coin.
But as Cardinal says, it could just be the lighting...
I see your point on the images, but I think even though the high resolution images of the Neil/Carter coin are outstanding, I'm just not sure they are enough to make a concrete determination.
The strike on the Carter 1794 is extremely strong, and the hair detail is REALLY raised up in relief from the fields. It looks to me that the lighting and focus in the image are centered right on the cheek of Miss Liberty, and that created some shadows at the left edges of her hair (as well as to the right of the portrait) and slight blurring at the lowest curls. So, it may be that the shadows are hiding some of the finest hair details that we can't see in the image.
Perhaps one day I'll get an opportunity to examine my specimen with the Carter coin side-by-side to make a conclusive comparison.
"Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you." -Luke 11:9
"Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD: And thou shalt love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might." -Deut. 6:4-5
"For the LORD is our judge, the LORD is our lawgiver, the LORD is our king; He will save us." -Isaiah 33:22
Lathmach, Jade wouldnt bash it if it was his, but the current owner is a modern day PT Barnum, and has PCGS with glowing eyes watching his show. If PCGS continues to make ignorant, unfounded statements in relation to "their" coins, prices for PCGS will drop to ACG range. I agree with Jade. Silver plug and the only one? Later mintage, not even close to first. But the dealers and PCGS are all in the business to make money. And the press? Just an entertainment vehicle with few relative facts.
I did my research on the coin. Spoke with Dexter at his laboratory, and he said he made the coin in 1994, out of a poxy injection mold ( a heavy plastic). Chose to make it in 1994 to celebrate "200 years of his favorite Silver coin". Had his sister Didi play dumb and sell it at a local coin shop. Now it's a SP66 from PCGS. Didi could only muster $100 from the coin dealer, even though she said it was the first ever minted. (She was supposed to say first DEXTER ever minted). But cost of material and labor was $5. Nice return.
Ladeeeeees and Gentlemen, presenting another bit of showmanship. Check the following act. I guess it's just a coincidence ? Makes for more good press though.
Another Numismatic Milestone: PCGS Celebrates 9 Millionth Coin
- March 4, 2004 This 1855 Type Two gold dollar is the 9 millionth coin authenticated and graded by PCGS.
(Newport Beach, CA) -- An 1855 Type Two gold dollar now is part of numismatic marketplace history. On March 4, it was registered as the nine millionth coin submitted to Professional Coin Grading Service (PCGS), a division of Collectors Universe, Inc.
The coin is graded PCGS MS-66, and the historic serial number, 09000000, is printed on the encapsulation holder's insert.
The milestone was reached less than a year after PCGS recorded its eight millionth coin in April 2003 and a little over 18 years since the company received its first coin submission in February 1986.
"This is an amazing landmark for the hobby and profession. Nine million coins are obviously a lot of coins, and the market clearly has embraced the third party grading concept. The consumer has spoken and told everyone he wants third-party verification of authenticity and quality," said David Hall, PCGS President and Founder.
"We think the coin market is a better place now for consumers because of third-party grading, and we're glad we were a big part of the revolution."
The milestone coin, an 1855 Type Two Indian Head gold dollar, was submitted by long time PCGS dealer, Steve Contursi, President of Rare Coin Wholesalers in Dana Point, California.
Hall personally contacted Steve Contursi to surprise him with the news that his coin was something extraordinary for the company and to share the significant achievement with him.
Ron Howard, PCGS Director of Grading, stated: "Type Two gold dollars are the rarest of the 12 major gold types in superb gem condition. This 1855 is a gorgeous original gem with spectacular iridescent luster. It's one of only 14 examples PCGS has graded MS66 in the past 18 years."
"It is especially gratifying that we certified the nine millionth coin just as the second edition of the PCGS-authored reference book, 'The Official Guide to Coin Grading and Counterfeit Detection,' is going into bookstores," said Hall.
Hall believes the milestone underscores the strength of the numismatic market as well as third-party grading.
"The coin market is hot, and PCGS submissions have increased dramatically. We are now authenticating and grading about 100,000 coins per month, slightly double the monthly average three years ago," he said.
"Submissions of vintage coins are way up, and modern -- post 1964 -- coins have become a major part of our business, representing about 30 percent of all submissions compared to less than 10 percent three years ago."
Among the nine million items submitted to PCGS the past 18 years are several of the world's most valuable rare coins, including the unique 1794 Flowing Hair dollar with a silver plug (PCGS Specimen-66); the $4.14 million Child's specimen 1804 Bust dollar (PCGS PF-67), and the finest known 1913 Liberty Head nickel (PCGS PF-66) that sold for nearly $3 million last year. PCGS experts authenticated the previously missing Walton specimen 1913 Liberty Head nickel last summer.
PCGS estimates the total declared value of the nine million coins submitted is $10 billion.
did my research on the coin. Spoke with Dexter at his laboratory, and he said he made the coin in 1994
Lloydmincy, you touched on something with this statement. Are you ready for some REAL controversy? Or should I just leave this one alone? Before I say anything, let me go to the cleaners to get my forum flameguard suit.
do you mean that Steve happened to get the 9 millionth coin graded? Funny how each millionth coin is always something nice. Why not a ms65 state quarter?
zerbe, from my experience, you will attempt to post and you will get a message asking you to login. When you type in your login and password, you will get another message saying "username does not exist", or something similar.
Comments
siliconvalleycoins.com
My 1866 Philly Mint Set
If those assumptions are made [and they aren't very farfetched], then by the process of elimination the coin must be the first struck since there are no others that qualify! >>
TDN
Thats also assuming that the first dollar ever struck still exists! Maybe the first 94 is in some basement wall somewhere, just waiting to be discovered. If that's the case, Contursi can only claim that he has the earliest strike known. That would be more realistic ( and certainly worth crowing about).
Best,
Sunnywood
Sunnywood's Rainbow-Toned Morgans (Retired)
Sunnywood's Barber Quarters (Retired)
Thanks to Cardinal for your great die pics and information and your dollar is another breathtaker.
Thanks to Zorba I will be looking forwards to learning more about your historic family coin.
Thanks to Jade and to all who chimed in and made this thread a most enjoyable read.
I still say the PROPHETS are simply looking for PROFITS.
The main PROPHET in this story should donate the Carter 1794 to the Smithsonian, since as he puts it, it is a" NATIONAL TREASURE ".
I agree the Carter 1794 is an early die state, high grade specimen, no more and no less. It is a fabulous coin and worth a certain amount of dollars, not the hyped up, false, amount of 10 million which only stems from greed.
By the way, who can say for certain, that the first struck silver dollar
is in high grade condition. Why could'nt it be in very fine condition, or maybe lost forever ????
Enough of the self serving hype. I, for one, am sick of it and it seriously detracts from the hobby.
True. One of the leading experts in the area of 1794 Dollars, Cardinal, stated in this thread that nobody has definitively proven the Carter specimen's first strike status. That being said, do you think that this coin will eventually be sold as "America's First Silver Dollar". I do. I predict that it will be someone like Bill Gates or the owner of a major league sports franchise. Whoever buys the hype will be paying too much, imho, and that was my point when I started this thread. Nuff said.
PS - zerbe, I like your idea about the Smithsonian.....right next to the copper die trial.
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"Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you." -Luke 11:9
"Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD: And thou shalt love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might." -Deut. 6:4-5
"For the LORD is our judge, the LORD is our lawgiver, the LORD is our king; He will save us." -Isaiah 33:22
Finally, another person who sees the big picture and the hobby/marketplace potential.
Thank you.
-donn-
Cardinal
Member
excellent analysis!
Tbig
<< <i>I knew of the copper trial strikes as well. The claim is for the first "silver" dollar. >>
TBig, as has been pointed out in one or more of the scattered threads on this topic, such a claim should rightly go to whichever silver Continental Dollar was first struck, not to a 1794 dollar.
I am remiss in the fact that I was not aware of the 3 die states and did not bother to check. I learned something new and am pleased with the knowledge gained through this thread. Someone asked "how many 1794 dollars have you handled?". Well, on a daily basis I buy and sell coins that range in price from $5 up to $500 and occassionally we will handle coins up to $10,000 or so. That pretty much eliminates the possibility of us "stocking" any 1794 dollars. I have, however, examined 3 different 1794 dollars at shows over the past 5 years. They were all circulated coins (VG-VF) and had problems, and I really got a rush from the close-up exposure. But all of this really means little when it comes to the debate regarding the Carter specimen's first strike status. How many 1794 dollars you have examined or how extensive your research on 1794 dollars has been does not solve the mystery. Sure you can unravel it a bit, but not solve it. This is really a matter of commonsense and logic and anyone can partcipate in the debate, regardless of numismatic knowledge.
My only discontent is the manner in which so many "top experts" jumped on the "first strike" band wagon without conclusive, irrefutable proof of first strike status.
edited for spelling
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<< <i>My only discontent is the manner in which so many "top experts" jumped on the "first strike" band wagon without conclusive, irrefutable proof of first strike status. >>
Jade, I have heard of only a select few "top experts" "jumping on the first strike band wagon" (I don't count silly, spoon-fed, over-hyped national news stories as expert opinions). To whom are you referring as being among "so many"?
New Member
Posts: 20
Joined: Dec 2002
Thursday March 18, 2004 6:46 AM (NEW!)
Michael Dixon wrote: "The story is priceless in terms of positive press for the hobby."
Halfsense wrote,
Finally, another person who sees the big picture and the hobby/marketplace potential.
Thank you.
-donn-
Halfsense,
For people who live in a cave, the story is good press.
For people who truely know coins and know the 'players' who deliberately use baseless hype to sell their coins for a bigger profit, it is extremely bad press.
If you would open your eyes fully and not be led like sheep to the slaughter, you would see that certain people in the COIN INDUSTRY
are primarily in the COIN BUSINESS, for profit and profit only. It does not take long to determine which people in the COIN INDUSTRY care about coins and coin collectors and which ones care about money and money and money.
If the people involved in this fictional story of the first struck dollar are to profit by millions of dollars because they have artifically created a unique coin, by their "expertise " based on conjecture, then everybody loses, especially the person who would eventually purchase, what I will now label as the " PHOPHESY COIN ".
You have to learn which is good hype and which is bad hype. If you want me to believe that all hype is good and positve, then I am sorry I missed having a toast with JIM JONES.
As Cher said in MOONSTRUCK, "SNAP OUT OF IT "
Jade, I have heard of only a select few "top experts" "jumping on the first strike band wagon" (I don't count silly, spoon-fed, over-hyped national news stories as expert opinions). To whom are you referring as being among "so many"?
Coinguy1, I would name 3 right here, but I would probably get banned again. Just read the links to the AP stories. But you are correct, I should have said "the 3 or 4" and not "so many". Actually, several experts have correctly stated in the press that the coin is a very early strike, but it could never be proven that it was the first coin struck. To me, those guys are the real experts. Correction made.
Our eBay auctions - TRUE auctions: start at $0.01, no reserve, 30 day unconditional return privilege & free shipping!
We know that the mint was striking a new coin, of a new denomination, for the first time, possibly on a press that had not been set up before. It makes sense that they would have struck a few trial pieces before the regular run on October 15, 1794 to see how they looked and to test the press. We know that a copper pattern or trial specimen was struck, apparently from the same die state. The Neil/Carter coin was struck on an adjusted planchet with a silver plug. We do not know of any other 1794 dollars with a silver plug, and we know that the silver plug was used on some dollars in 1795. That planchet may not have been intended as a business strike–it could have been a trial planchet and could have been used for a trial strike. But they may also have tried one or more trial strikes on the regular planchet, the fate of which is/are not known. Which was struck first?
Cardinal says that the Neil/Carter is the only Die State I coin known. That would seem to indicate that the dies clashed very early on in the process. Could the silver plug planchet have been blamed for “feeding” problems? If so, they could have discontinued use of the plugged planchet, switched to the regular planchet, struck a run, noticed that they were not struck evenly (due to the dies having been knocked out of level when clashed?), relapped and realigned the dies, with the result being a lapped but more evenly struck coin like the Bass coin.
Final possibility. Could there have been two 1794 dies? If so, could the second die have been used after the 1794s were struck, possibly even in 1795, to test the silver plug planchet-thus creating the Neil/Carter coin? But would we see detectible differences between coins struck from two different dies even if the engraver tried his best to make them identical?
CG
All of the early silver dollars were struck from hand made dies. In several instances (dollars dated 1799 especially), the engravers made the dies EXTREMELY similar. However, the differences ARE detectable upon careful examination. In the case of 1794 dollars, all study to date points to there have been just one single set of dies used for the entire mintage.
Regarding the silver Continental dollars, I must admit I know rather little about Colonial coinage. Were these actually struck under the legislative authority of the United States of America federal government? Perhaps someone could clarify this.
From what I've read, the Mint Act of April 2, 1792 seems to me to be the piece of legislation that first officially established the U.S. Mint in Philadelphia and legislated the production of dollar coins of specified purity of silver. Clearly, the Continental dollars were not struck under the authority of the Mint Act of 1792, as their production pre-dated the Act. So, it seems to me, the Flowing Hair Silver Dollars dated 1794 were the first silver dollar coins struck under the official authority of the Act.
Link 1
Link 2
It is a gorgeous coin that should be in the Smithsonian. The data would suggest that of all surviving coins it was the first minted IMHO.
Thanks for all the posts from the true expers as this is what makes this forum so great!
Perhaps there are actually 5 die states.... yours is die state II and the Carter coin is die state III and the Bass coin is die state V.
Our eBay auctions - TRUE auctions: start at $0.01, no reserve, 30 day unconditional return privilege & free shipping!
Send me your want lists.
When it was at PCGS last year, John Miller (Wayne's son) and I took a couple of photos, which I thought I'd share with you.
The good news: They're big and high rez, and suitable for desktop use or even a decent sized print.
The bad news: They're big and high rez, and if you ain't got DSL or cable, you may have a wait while they download.
Cut and paste the following addresses into your browser, and we hope you enjoy. :-)
http://www.pcgs.com/images/94Obverse.jpg
http://www.pcgs.com/images/94Reverse.jpg
Director of Numismatics
PCGS
For people who truely know coins and know the 'players' who deliberately use baseless hype to sell their coins for a bigger profit, it is extremely bad press.
If you would open your eyes fully and not be led like sheep to the slaughter, you would see that certain people in the COIN INDUSTRY
are primarily in the COIN BUSINESS, for profit and profit only. It does not take long to determine which people in the COIN INDUSTRY care about coins and coin collectors and which ones care about money and money and money.
If the people involved in this fictional story of the first struck dollar are to profit by millions of dollars because they have artifically created a unique coin, by their "expertise " based on conjecture, then everybody loses, especially the person who would eventually purchase, what I will now label as the " PHOPHESY COIN ".
You have to learn which is good hype and which is bad hype. If you want me to believe that all hype is good and positve, then I am sorry I missed having a toast with JIM JONES.
As Cher said in MOONSTRUCK, "SNAP OUT OF IT "
AMEN PQGOLD!!!
Mojo
-Jim Morrison-
Mr. Mojorizn
my blog:www.numistories.com
After viewing the high resolution obverse and making careful comparison on the hair detail in the left field to Cardinal's wonderful coin, I wonder if the Cardinal specimen is an earlier die state than the Carter specimen. Minute details are missing on the better struck coin.
But as Cardinal says, it could just be the lighting...
I see your point on the images, but I think even though the high resolution images of the Neil/Carter coin are outstanding, I'm just not sure they are enough to make a concrete determination.
The strike on the Carter 1794 is extremely strong, and the hair detail is REALLY raised up in relief from the fields. It looks to me that the lighting and focus in the image are centered right on the cheek of Miss Liberty, and that created some shadows at the left edges of her hair (as well as to the right of the portrait) and slight blurring at the lowest curls. So, it may be that the shadows are hiding some of the finest hair details that we can't see in the image.
Perhaps one day I'll get an opportunity to examine my specimen with the Carter coin side-by-side to make a conclusive comparison.
"Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you." -Luke 11:9
"Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD: And thou shalt love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might." -Deut. 6:4-5
"For the LORD is our judge, the LORD is our lawgiver, the LORD is our king; He will save us." -Isaiah 33:22
I did my research on the coin. Spoke with Dexter at his laboratory, and he said he made the coin in 1994, out of a poxy injection mold ( a heavy plastic). Chose to make it in 1994 to celebrate "200 years of his favorite Silver coin". Had his sister Didi play dumb and sell it at a local coin shop. Now it's a SP66 from PCGS. Didi could only muster $100 from the coin dealer, even though she said it was the first ever minted. (She was supposed to say first DEXTER ever minted). But cost of material and labor was $5. Nice return.
Does the coin say Contursi or David Hunt on the pedigree?
It is Hunt money that purchased the coin......yes the famous Hunt family of Texas.
And what about Knoxville and Jay Parrino?
Stewart
Ladeeeeees and Gentlemen, presenting another bit of showmanship. Check the following act. I guess it's just a coincidence ? Makes for more good press though.
Another Numismatic Milestone: PCGS Celebrates 9 Millionth Coin
- March 4, 2004 This 1855 Type Two gold dollar is the 9 millionth coin authenticated and graded by PCGS.
(Newport Beach, CA) -- An 1855 Type Two gold dollar now is part of numismatic marketplace history. On March 4, it was registered as the nine millionth coin submitted to Professional Coin Grading Service (PCGS), a division of Collectors Universe, Inc.
The coin is graded PCGS MS-66, and the historic serial number, 09000000, is printed on the encapsulation holder's insert.
The milestone was reached less than a year after PCGS recorded its eight millionth coin in April 2003 and a little over 18 years since the company received its first coin submission in February 1986.
"This is an amazing landmark for the hobby and profession. Nine million coins are obviously a lot of coins, and the market clearly has embraced the third party grading concept. The consumer has spoken and told everyone he wants third-party verification of authenticity and quality," said David Hall, PCGS President and Founder.
"We think the coin market is a better place now for consumers because of third-party grading, and we're glad we were a big part of the revolution."
The milestone coin, an 1855 Type Two Indian Head gold dollar, was submitted by long time PCGS dealer, Steve Contursi, President of Rare Coin Wholesalers in Dana Point, California.
Hall personally contacted Steve Contursi to surprise him with the news that his coin was something extraordinary for the company and to share the significant achievement with him.
Ron Howard, PCGS Director of Grading, stated: "Type Two gold dollars are the rarest of the 12 major gold types in superb gem condition. This 1855 is a gorgeous original gem with spectacular iridescent luster. It's one of only 14 examples PCGS has graded MS66 in the past 18 years."
"It is especially gratifying that we certified the nine millionth coin just as the second edition of the PCGS-authored reference book, 'The Official Guide to Coin Grading and Counterfeit Detection,' is going into bookstores," said Hall.
Hall believes the milestone underscores the strength of the numismatic market as well as third-party grading.
"The coin market is hot, and PCGS submissions have increased dramatically. We are now authenticating and grading about 100,000 coins per month, slightly double the monthly average three years ago," he said.
"Submissions of vintage coins are way up, and modern -- post 1964 -- coins have become a major part of our business, representing about 30 percent of all submissions compared to less than 10 percent three years ago."
Among the nine million items submitted to PCGS the past 18 years are several of the world's most valuable rare coins, including the unique 1794 Flowing Hair dollar with a silver plug (PCGS Specimen-66); the $4.14 million Child's specimen 1804 Bust dollar (PCGS PF-67), and the finest known 1913 Liberty Head nickel (PCGS PF-66) that sold for nearly $3 million last year. PCGS experts authenticated the previously missing Walton specimen 1913 Liberty Head nickel last summer.
PCGS estimates the total declared value of the nine million coins submitted is $10 billion.
Lloydmincy, you touched on something with this statement. Are you ready for some REAL controversy? Or should I just leave this one alone? Before I say anything, let me go to the cleaners to get my forum flameguard suit.
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Yes.
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do you mean that Steve happened to get the 9 millionth coin graded? Funny how each millionth coin is always something nice. Why not a ms65 state quarter?
I'm still here. Guess everybody at PCGS is at a meeting.
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Do they email you with a notice, or do they just simply 'pull the plug' ???
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