What is the history behind PSA?

frankhardy · March 11, 2004 2:31AM

I understand that the T206 Wagner PSA 8 was the first card that they graded. What year was that? Does anybody know the second card that they graded? I guess I would just like to have some people reply as to a little of the history of PSA.

SAHDofTwins · March 11, 2004 2:55AM

Anyone know what year they started grading? I remember sending an SASE for info a long time ago. After seeing the grading dee per card, I figured only vintage collectors would bother with their service.

Virtualizard · March 11, 2004 2:56AM

The T206 Wagner has a Cert # of 00000001, but I never knew that it was the first card ever graded - can someone else confirm this?

JEB.

jackstraw · March 11, 2004 2:58AM

jeb,
confirm that was the first card they graded.i believe they started grading in april of 1990? i have no clue what the second card they graded was but am betting it was a 52 mantle?

carew4me · March 11, 2004 2:59AM

I believe the Wagner played a significant role.

This piece of valuable cardboard needed to be authenticated(there were grumblings) and PSA was formed.

???

jackstraw · March 11, 2004 3:11AM

psa may have been there to grade/authenticate but i am sure they were designing a holder months before. they use to have to pay royalties to alan hagar(asa) just to use the 1 to 10 and arrow head holders. i guess what i am saying is that they didn't appear out of thin air because if hey did the holders and grading system would be exact replicate of asa. csa bought one of the first grading companies from hagar (he had a huge ad in the scd) and look at the first holders and grading system ythey had. i called him on starting a grading company and he said 500,000 to get it up and running with the right equipment. he also told me that i had to do 2 weeks of training in florida at their home base.

cspeier1 · March 11, 2004 3:17AM

The PSA Library for the 7th million card graded says the fist sports card was graded July of 1991. If you havn't read the story, you need to..

Chad

The53Kid · March 11, 2004 3:26AM

Here's the link to the story...

7 Million

AlanAllen · March 11, 2004 3:29AM

The last paragraph was interesting - PSA has graded $750,000,000 worth of cards!

Joe

Griffins · March 11, 2004 3:35AM

<< The last paragraph was interesting - PSA has graded $750,000,000 worth of cards!

Joe >>

Joe- wonder if that was based on SMR- guess I don't want to start asking what those were really worth!

onegaucho · March 11, 2004 3:37AM

A side question: I see these links to the PSA Library every so often on the boards... where can I find the rest? Is there a link on the PSA site that I'm not seeing?

AlanAllen · March 11, 2004 3:39AM

PSA articles

goodriddance189 · March 11, 2004 3:58AM

....and the other photo of this card circulating (with "McNall/Gretzky", written in the newer typeface) both have the same serial number. did PSA re-encapsulate this card with a different flip or something?

EDIT- there is also a photo of the card here
that has the old typeface and "McNall/Gretzky", which makes 2 separate times the card was removed and the flip updated? what's up with this?

WinPitcher · March 11, 2004 4:21AM

PSA was started by I believe David Hall who also was a founding partner of PCGS. And I too at first presumed that the service was going to be limited to vintage material. It wasn't until PSA realized (and rightly so) that their was a HUGE market in grading NEW STUFF that they also did that. In the early days only certain dealers could send in cards. Im sure this has been said b4 but I would hope that PSA would start another division soley for the grading and authenticating of vintage materials IE cards over 35 years or something. They could also do newer stuff as does Beckett. MHO

onegaucho · March 11, 2004 4:27AM

Thanks for the link Alan, but I'm wondering, how'd you know that link? Is there a way to navigate to it from a sidebar link?

AlanAllen · March 11, 2004 4:32AM

Gaucho,
At the end of each article, after the "e-mail link to a friend" and before PSA's address and phone number, there is a link called "PSA Library."

Joe

shagrotn77 · March 11, 2004 5:29AM

The article linked in the post by Goodriddance189 makes for some very interesting reading. Does anyone believe the Wagner card could be trimmed or altered in some other way?

goodriddance189 · March 11, 2004 5:34AM

Michael Wentz certainly thinks so. and judging by what he has said, he might be at least somewhat correct

frankhardy · March 11, 2004 7:01AM

If they just graded their 7 millionth card this month (serial number 07000000), why is my card from a submission this month numbered 40322760. Would that mean that now they have graded over 40 million? Something doesn't make sense to me. They must not number them sequentially.

qualitycards · March 11, 2004 7:47AM

<< They must not number them sequentially. >>

That is correct! My last few submissions started w/ #1, 3 & 4 all within the same month. And although the famed T206 Wagner has a serial # 0f 00000001, has anyone ever seen any other similar cards w/ #00000002, or 00000068 for that matter? ...jay

jackstraw · March 11, 2004 8:22AM

psa let anyone submit cards until august of 95. i remember this quite well. i made my first submission in sept. of 94. i set up at the 500 goal scorers show in atlantic city in august 95. i came home and called them to get some submission forms and they told me i now had to be an authorized dealer to submit

i used to submit through ric donohoo and he used to get like 1 buck for ever card or credit submitted through him. he used to just mail me the submission forms so it wasn't a big deal.

SKINSFAN · March 11, 2004 8:31AM

JAY Those cards that start with just 1 zero worry me enough, % wise many more overgraded then others in my humble opinion. Not sure I would want 1 starting with 6 zeros lol

TheCARDKid · March 11, 2004 8:49AM

What is the history of graded cards in general?

I remember Hager and his ASA ads in the early 90's. He patented the holder and grading system and licensed it to others (CSA, PSA). At card shows, I can remember Hager being one of a handful of dealers with graded cards (he was heavily into proof cards). PSA had such a small niche in the overall market.

I wonder if David Hall could ever have predicted how huge the graded card market would be.

jackstraw · March 11, 2004 8:53AM

hagar also patented the coin slab.
the proof cards/blankbacks were all purchased from the 89 topps archive auction and cut down to regular size, i believe.

qualitycards · March 11, 2004 8:58AM

<< I wonder if David Hall could ever have predicted how huge the graded card market would be. >>

I wonder if Alan Hager could have predicted it. He kinda started it all, and many of the upcoming card companies had to pay him for the use of the 1-10 grading system. I wonder if it was a 1 time fee or if he's still receiving royalities? ...jay

goodriddance189 · March 11, 2004 9:05AM

$30,000 one time fee, if i remember correctly. he held the 1-10 grading scale patent

jackstraw · March 11, 2004 9:08AM

jay when he sold the "grading companies" i don't think he renewed the patent's?that's why you see all these make shift grading companies because if they had to pay royalties they probably would not be in business. i also have heard that's why sbc went out because they didn't want to pay the royalties thus the 1 to 100 grading scale and the black insert?i also heard there was alot of dumb stuff going on behind the scenes.

Vargha · March 11, 2004 9:14AM

PSA has been around for over three decades now. David Hall used to fly around in this plane. It was dubbed "Card Force One" by skeptics who insisted that card grading was a passing fad.

BugOnTheRug · March 11, 2004 10:47AM

Quality,

<< My last few submissions started w/ #1, 3 & 4 all within the same month. And although the famed T206 Wagner has a serial # 0f 00000001, has anyone ever seen any other similar cards w/ #00000002, or 00000068 for that matter? ...jay >>

I wondered this myself, but I do remember Joe O. saying on the boards awhile back that the 3xxxxx.... or 1xxxxx.....or 9xxxxx...... prefix is just a grader designation. (I'm just listing the first number as examples). I recently received one card with an 80 or 81xxx..... designation.

So based on this, I'd assume the sequential card #'s are buried within all the other numbers. And maybe they were sequential in the beginning as you summize, but later the system was changed.

If someone knows more about this, please explain.

Bill

aro13 · March 11, 2004 11:01AM

jay - Around the time Hager's business practices and ethics were being exposed the patent was not renewed and at that time more and more grading companies came into being. crazysc has explained what happened a few times on the boards in the past.
Hager started the card grading after "reviewing thousands of cards" and "perhaps trimming thousands of cards". He was offering seminars and the price to start a grading service went higher as each one was sold. I believe PSA bought the first one, and than CSA, ASA Canada (now KSA) and perhaps USA. It is interesting if you check Hager's price guides. The prices were so out of whack for the time but now the high grade cards sell for more than his "guide" price.

Wabittwax · March 11, 2004 2:13PM

<< I wondered this myself, but I do remember Joe O. saying on the boards awhile back that the 3xxxxx.... or 1xxxxx.....or 9xxxxx...... prefix is just a grader designation. (I'm just listing the first number as examples). I recently received one card with an 80 or 81xxx..... designation. >>

Boy, I would sure love to know which cards where graded (or should I say undergraded) by the grader of death. There is a TON of money to be made if you know by the serial numbers as to which cards would probably regrade higher.

If anyone has this info or if anyone knows of a common starting serial number in which the whole batch was severly undergraded, please PM me.

purelyPSA · March 11, 2004 2:30PM

Steve - Now that's funny...if anyone had that info, they should patent it themselves, like Hagar and his scale, and license the Grader of Death information to collectors. They could advertise it as "understanding and disseminating the voice of GOD!"

I guess the only way to guess is to wait to get hosed, and then figure it from there.

Wabittwax · March 11, 2004 6:10PM

Yeah, I got hosed on about 5 submissions last year. I wish I would have wrote down some serial numbers and see if they matched.

gemint · March 12, 2004 3:45AM

<< PSA has been around for over three decades now. David Hall used to fly around in this plane. It was dubbed "Card Force One" by skeptics who insisted that card grading was a passing fad.

>>

Just don't show the one going down in flames

Vargha · March 12, 2004 3:58AM

CardKrazy · March 12, 2004 4:39AM

To Mr. Vargas I use to fly PSA burbank to San Fran and San Fran to San Diego! The Hostesses were terrific!!Krazy

motocrosser · March 12, 2004 12:12PM

I read it again tonight. The phobia that people have with cards graded with numbers starting at 0. I think psa should go back to the 0 for a year or two. Then cards like this will have a fair chance with all the o number phobic's...

Zero cert. number in psa's newest holder... Front Newest holder

Reversereverse

I guess this card is a questionable 8 because of the 05519421

Check it out for yourself...

mx'er

purelyPSA · March 12, 2004 2:34PM

Every card in Joe Orlando's book that has a photograph begins with a 0 I believe. Are they all suspect?

LuxuryWines · March 12, 2004 2:53PM

Interesting Thread....

I am not up much on the history of PSA as I have really only been involved in Slabbed cards for the last 5 years.

But, I have owned a lot of PSA cards from the the 1930's up until the mid 70's. My guess is somewhere north of 10,000 cards. Here are a couple of my observations:

1.) The "0" designation cards do have some variances in grading (at least from what I have seen and remembered) . That being said I think the % of graded cards that are under and over graded are significantly higher in "0" than in any of the 1-9 desiginations. I also think the % that were overgraded might be almost twice the % that were under graded.

However , I would say I have also handled signifcantly fewer "0" cards than any other #. The main numbers I have rembered seeing are 1,3,4,5,9. I do not recall 2's,6 ,7 or 8. May have seen some but not quite sure (BTW 99% of what I handle is Baseball could these numbers be more prevalent in other sports or modern cards).

Now, Why are their far more Overgraded cards than in the later numbers a couple of reasons:

1.) if these truly were the first numbers of a nascent company it could have their beta product. They started grading and founds a few things that needed to be tweaked but took a while to get fixed.

2.) But more likely the answer is to be found in the following questions:

Quick you have a PSA card that you feel is Undergraded Do you?

A.) Leave it in its current holder and because it is the nicest darn 8 you have ever seen. (Judging from the write-ups I see on Ebay a lot of you are out there).

You Paid for an 8 not a 9. What honerable person could accept that card ? You immeadiately sell it and donate the money to charity. Leaving some other poor slob with the guilt of owning an undergraded card. By the way I handle guilt quite well please feel free to abuse me in this manner.

C.) You crack it out . Place in it in a card saver 1 and send it in again. Hope those graders get it right this time so you can upgrade your set or make some nice dough. (My preferred method ) . By the way I think PSA gets it right a lot more than we give them credit for. Otherwise why would we spend from $15 to hundreds of dollars for what should be a $2-$3 common. Nuf Ced!

Now for question # 2 - You have a card you feel is overgraded. Do you ?

A.) Crack it out and resubmit it . Losing money and lesser grade cards just really make me happy!

B.) No No NO . This card is special it sticks out like a sore thumb. I just love how bad it looks like next to all my other cards I spent a small fortune in time and money putting this set together.

C.) For now I will hold onto it . When I find a nicer 8 or a reasonable 9 it adios yesterday mister weak 8 card. Soon to be found on EBAY or a card show near you! Strangely a lot of people find when they go to sell it the card immeadiately becomes a high end 8 or an 8++++++++ (Wonder how many times this line is recycled)

Finally Question # 3 - The card is fairly graded:

A.) Crack it out and resubmit it. What the heck its only money and I just love the writers cramp I get from filling out forms.

B.) Gee Maybe I just put it in my set and leave it there unless I decide to upgrade my set.

C.) I just like building sets. As soon as I am done I will either break this set up or sell it as a whole and someone else will proably break it up. Who cares I had a ton of fun building it ,met some neat people, and maybe even made some nice money from the experience .

Of course over time I think the undegraded cards are cracked and resubmited and their numbers become fewer and fewer. Fairly graded cards become embedded in collections and are seen less and less. Overgraded cards for the most part are just recycled . Unless some complains to PSA about the card.Then it might get downgraded .

Just my .02

Jeff

Steve - By the way with your luck if you found thegrader of death's prefix and bought those cards up, when you resubmitted those cards would magically find their way back to him. Judging from your past dealings with the grader of death, he would found some minute surface wrinkle in all of the cards making your PSA 8's you hoped were 9's some of the nicest looking 4's you ever saw.

jaxxr · March 12, 2004 9:26PM

I heard someplace that the concept of "graded" cards came about from several top collectors trying to compare their sets.

Fogel ?, Merkel ? Hall ?, perhaps, I can't recall whom it was, wanted a way to evaluate the cards so as to see who really had the best set of any particular year. Quite similar to coin grading, but a simple 1-10 scale was used instead of the coin worlds' 1-70.

From this, or something close, I believe PSA was developed.

purelyPSA · March 13, 2004 9:47AM

PCGS was established back in the 80s, and that revolutionized the coin industry. It's a short jump from coins to cards. I doubt there was any moment of revelation when the decision to apply the same to cards was established.

WinPitcher · March 13, 2004 9:55AM

.....And it was when the coin dealers entered our hobby en mass that for good or bad, they brought the money and here we are. I remm the time like it was yesterday. besides the money they also brought in the strict grading.

iconductor · March 13, 2004 10:53AM

Alan Hager....Pioneer or Pirate! LOL

Hager filed for bankruptcy in 2000. It is very interesting site! Someone is pissed!

Link To Site About ASA Accugrade Hager

BigKidAtHeart · March 13, 2004 11:20AM

<<

....the other photo of this card circulating (with "McNall/Gretzky", written in the newer typeface) both have the same serial number. did PSA re-encapsulate this card with a different flip or something? >>

Good Question?
and what I want to know, is who was Brave
enought to crack out that $1,000,000 card!
(and what would they have done in their pants
if they dropped or dinged it!?!)
~jeff

What is the history behind PSA?

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