Well this is a nice Trimmed BGS 9.5 Delmon SPx

KallMaloneSay

The nicest trimmed Delmon on earth

Strange that this card was in my hands at the San Francisco Tristar, straight out of a pack on Friday. You would think that if I felt it was a BGS 9.5 I would have graded it myself, but there was a little white chipping on the back and one front corner wasn't all there. Shoeless-Joe even saw that it had these imperfections on it. He is a real @#%$ too, I got on the phone with my business partner to tell him I pulled this Delmon and when I said it had a good shot at a BGS 9 he was making comments like "you're dreaming." Well Joe, then how did you get a 9.5 on it?

For those of you who don't know, Shoeless-Joe and Keith Koenig are there in the morning of every big show on the first day, buying up raw cards while pulling along their little suitcases on wheels. Odd that both of them buy raw cards from me that I know aren't worth grading, yet they always seem to pull 9.5's. They must have their nice industrial sharpness paper cutters with them in their hotel rooms to do their work that night and get everything Raw Card Reviewed. So if you choose to buy their cards, I'm sure they look very nice, but don't be surprised if they're a little bit short.

Vincecarder

Hey I just bought a PSA 10 from kkoenig75...does this guy do alot of trimming? I know the card I bought does tend to have alot of chipping and 10's are tough. I'll really look it over when it arrives.

Jmnesq

Here is a discussion where Mr. Koenig came to our Beckett Message Board, paid a little visit, and defended himself, albiet poorly.

A link to Mr. Koenig's defense.

azcatsfan15

Hello everyone,

Although this may be the first time I have posted in here, I have been watching these boards for the last 2 years!

If anyone wants to see anything about Mr. Keith Koenig and his buddy Kevin Burge, please refer to the following links:

Kevin Burge trimming Mark Prior 2001 SP Authentic RC BGS 9 into a BGS 10!!


Lebron James 2003-04 SPX Auto RC BGS 10??!!


Hope this sheds some light into what these "unscrupulous people" like to do to unsuspecting people!


Thank you,

Ricardo (azcatsfan15 member of the other board... you know which one!)


Edit: Thanks Jeff for bringing everyone up to speed about these "Jackasses! with one of the links!

Beachbum

Well well....

Jason, my good friend, I have invited you to the BGS boards where I found a home amongst people who share a higher interest in modern over vintage cards.

But now we're down to serious business and I see some of my BGS friends are here to let you in on the work we have been doing over there, us modern collectors, especially this "moderncollector", my BGS persona.

I see JeffN, a fellow chrome addict and great Tampa attorney and Ricardo who is "Ricardo Fetterman" are leading you to the threads I merely hinted at in e-mails in the past.

I am proud to have battled Burgeand his ilk for months now at BGS; I find it ironic and humiliating for BGS that they are the card doctor's and cheats #1 choice for passing their handiwork off to an unsuspecting public; humiliating because it is on BGS own boards that we vilify them.

For months I have been tracking the profits of a group of Ebay sellers that have an uncanny number of BGS 9.5's and Pristine 10's. Their explanation is that they have a good eye....the eye associated with them is the black eye they impart to an industry that doesn't need another grading scandal.

Jason, you have taken the first giant step to seeing a picture that is pretty ugly....I learned quickly as I see an infrastructure which buys raw and only gets caught when they are stupid enough to do something with a serially numbered card. The Mark Prior mess was raised here by Snowball at the end of September '03; you have just seen it with your own eyes. How does a BGS 9 rise to a 10 ???? Why do before and after cards of that Prior seem like the card has been on a "diet"??

Certain people feel they can trim cards with impugnity and they always end up in BGS holders...hmmmm? Rumors of laser cutters and other interesting tools of a trade....paranoia, some would say.....how long have you been in this game Jason, grading cards??? Do your eyes lie?

Again Jason....I ask you come visit the Board that has been my home since December, where us modern collector's are examining issues and asking questions and writing threads like Jeff linked here.

We gotta talk Jason.....

Mike

Daeyel

I saw on Snowball's thread that the cards surrounding the prior were heavy on the 0.0 (meaning trimmed - rejected)
Wouldnt it be common sense to reject an entire submission lot of a certain percentage are showing signs of trimming?

Or am I missing something here (never submitted before)

schr1st

One thing I've learned the hard way is that card grading and common sense are rarely used in the same sentence...

So that's how they are doing it, eh? Nice little business model they have set up: buy em, trim em, Raw Card Review em, then pawn them off RAW on eBay under one of the 3 or 4 ID's they have if they are detected. Nice little scam they've got going. All I can say is that I really hope they are at the National this year.



<< <i>I saw on Snowball's thread that the cards surrounding the prior were heavy on the 0.0 (meaning trimmed - rejected)
Wouldnt it be common sense to reject an entire submission lot of a certain percentage are showing signs of trimming?

Or am I missing something here (never submitted before) >>

70chip

KallMalone, Got a quick question from a Newbie......What on this card is leading you to believe this card has been trimmed instead of "favorable or missed grading"? Not doubting your credibility at all, just trying to learn for myself for future reference/protection. I appreciate your time and feedback.

ctsoxfan

<< <i>Here is a discussion where Mr. Koenig came to our Beckett Message Board, paid a little visit, and defended himself, albiet poorly.

Thank you for providing this link. I missed out on seeing his reaction, which speaks volumes to me. I seriously hope that we keep people like these under watch, and also, what a great network of informed collectors we have. BGS has always been suspect to me, and now the proof is becoming hard to ignore.

schr1st

Harder to ignore? No doubt. Even harder to get the message out to other collectors? Yup. If only Tuff Stuff/SCD have any backbone (or respect in the hobby), at least the message would get out to a larger audience.



<< <i>
Thank you for providing this link. I missed out on seeing his reaction, which speaks volumes to me. I seriously hope that we keep people like these under watch, and also, what a great network of informed collectors we have. BGS has always been suspect to me, and now the proof is becoming hard to ignore. >>

Rainman

thanks for pointing this out. i don't have time to track the high # of sellers w/BGS 9.5s (or PSA 10s for that matter), but stories like this are why i normally only buy my graded cards from a select few (3-4) i feel are reputable.

schr1st

Much like the WIWAG problem for PSA collectors, the problem is that while you may trust the person you are buying from, unless they are submitting all of their cards themselves, how can you be sure that they acquired the card from a reputable seller?



<< <i>thanks for pointing this out. i don't have time to track the high # of sellers w/BGS 9.5s (or PSA 10s for that matter), but stories like this are why i normally only buy my graded cards from a select few (3-4) i feel are reputable. >>

Rainman

the people i buy from do submit the cards themselves. there have also been threads about psa dealers who get an unusually high # of 9s and 10s- and who some people say have had "short" cards holdered.

i'm not claiming to be an expert (i.e., i don't measure each graded card to the .00000000000000001 to see if it matches up), but i feel comfortable in giving my repeat business to those few dealers. i have a few bgs 9.5s (not bought from any of the alleged 'card doctors' to my knowledge- i can't keep up w/the various ebay nics) and they match the psa 10s in card length. b/c of the grading allegations for both bgs and psa recently, i'm choosing to submit more cards on my own for grading. that way i know the source, i know the condition of the card when pulled, etc.

KallMaloneSay

Sorry to just post and fade off, but I'm heading to the Phoenix Tristar in a few hours and I'm way behind on loading up.

To answer one question, there's no way this card was a BGS 9.5, an outside chance at a 9 (which Jackson didn't even give it a chance at, he said there was no way it was better than an 8.5). I'd have to rule out the possibilty of favorable grading in this one, I don't think BGS would give a card 10, 9.5, 9.5, 9.5 subs if it had chipping and white corners.

Mike, thanks for the invite to the Beckett boards, possibly in the future, but the store/2-3 shows per month/ebay listings keep me too busy already. After working an average of 70 hours per week with cards, even I need a break despite my love of collecting.

As for Koenig, I'm a little sorry that I put his name out there. He is a real nice guy and would never publicly scrutinize me I'm sure, so I owe him an apology in that respect. He does however, buy raw cards from me that aren't gradable which can't be profittable in his business of buying hot cards at 80-100% of book and then getting 8.5's on them from Beckett. I shouldn't have named him, but what's done is done. He and Jackson were conversating quite a bit at the show and looked like the Bopsy Twins with their suitcase-on-wheels behind them.

There are a few other high volume/high grade BGS submitters I have my suspicions about, but I have no strong evidence to imply them, so I won't. As for myself, I will still probably use BGS here and there. For frame of reference I have probably had 2200 cards graded by PSA and maybe 200 graded by BGS. In the inner circles it's no secret that BGS is much easier to get away with trim jobs, this is pretty much common knowledge. I still think BGS has ten times a nicer holder/service than any other grading company, but I always have to cringe a little when I see a ton of high grade cards from only four or five sellers nationwide. Isn't it a little suspicious that these 4 or 5 major submitters end up with about 85% of the key modern graded BGS 9.5's and BGS 10's despite maybe submitting 5% of the total population on these cards? Anyways, I might be in enough trouble already. I'm sure now I'll be labelled a hypocrite by some when I'm selling a bunch of BGS 9's and 9.5's in the next few weeks (mostly Bowman Chrome RC's).

To sum up my thoughts on BGS; I love their service and just feel they've made a mistake by
(1) admittedly allowing sheet cut cards (all high grade O-Pee-Chee hockey cards and 1971 Topps baseball are sheet cut/trimmed)
(2) publicly stating that cards can be up to 1/32 of an inch short either way

From these two BGS admitted factors, aren't they just saying "we'll let you cut any card you want up to 1/32nd of an inch?"

I'll try to get back to ya'll on Monday, wish me luck in Phoenix,
Jason

ctsoxfan

<< <i>As for Koenig, I'm a little sorry that I put his name out there. >>



Don't be. It sounds like this is a scandal awaiting a serious investigation, and at the least, you may have saved some of us big money. I hope that this is just the beginning of more information about the exploits of these shady dealers / card doctors.

dtkk49a

Does anyone know how SGC rates on detecting trimmed cards ?

I do not have the budget for 9.5's and 10's, so when I read about all this trimming, it makes me wonder about who is actually buying these cards
Pardon my ignorance, but with all the obvious rampant trimming taking place, how can anyone be confident of any card in a 9.5 or 10 holder ? Especially the newer cards, where I assume trimming is harder to detect. I just read this old forum post and I found it very interesting.

http://forums.collectors.com/messageview.cfm?catid=11&threadid=81428&highlight_key=y&keyword1=trimming





<< <i>Give me ambiguity or give me something else >>