PSA and rough cuts

MorrellMan

I'm putting together my first batch of commons for submission, and I'm hoping to get some help from the board: Cards are 1961 Topps Baseball, 3rd series, looking for 9s - if the card appears mint in every other way, can a rough cut edge get a 9? I'd appreciate any input regarding rough cuts and those nasty little pull marks that '61s so often have.

mariner

Yes, rough cuts can still get a 9.

motocrosser

Mark....

Like Don said, absolutely! I have many great looking rough cut 9's in my set. Rough cuts don't bother me at all, actually I think the cut adds to the authenticity of an older card. Rough cuts can't be found in newer cards because the cutting process has changed.

Mark, please let us know if you receive any 9's from your submission. I'll buy on the spot, if you will sell off ebay... Buckwheat can have first crack, I'll yield to the top set. PM or email me...............j.jlinnens@verizon.net

SEND IN THAT SUBMISSION! Good luck.

John
________________________
1961 topps 100% @ 8.40 gpa

scottsusor

I agree with the others that "rough cuts" don't impact a card's grade. Its referred to as a factory defect or a limitation of production technology in the past. Still, I wonder why there isn't an "RC" qualifier for such an anomoly. After all, what real difference is there between rough cuts and other type of factory defects or production limitations such as off center (OC), fish eyes, and bubbles (PD)?

Scott

highend

PSA is easily the most tolerant of the big companies on rough cuts. i really dont mind them, centering, corners, gloss, and focus are key for me. like SCOTTUSOR stated, i have wondered why PSA doesn't qualify the roughcuts. i would guess if the card is otherwise mint , and if the rough cut isn't too bad the appeal is still there. BECKETT will destroy a rough cut, a while back i picked up a BGS 6.5 '71 topps aaron with slight rough cuts, cracked it and crossed to PSA 8. in general most people don't seem to mind the rough cut. i will add that i cant ever recall seeing a roughcut psa 10.

MorrellMan

Thanks alot guys; what about the little black printer smudges or lines in the border? Is there an acceptable amount or do they qualify the grade if they appear at all? I'm also confused by the 60/40 to 65/35 centering tolerance. Which is it - 60/40 or 65/35?

Today is a special day. I bought a 10X loupe. I can FINALLY see the difference between a 7 and an 8. Thanks to all for that invaluable piece of info - I want to shout it from the roof tops! Hallelujah!

scottsusor

Its 65/35 measured at the worst centered part, both top/bottom and left/right. Cutting lines don't seem to affect the card's grading as long as its within the 65/35 boundaries. Printing spots (or other printing defect) are relative -- I've seen some cards get away with them and other get a PD (Print Defect) if they're significant.

Scott

motocrosser

Mark,
Centering's (key word) APPROXIMATELY... 60/40 to 65/35 or better on the front. If a card is very clean (maybe a few tiny print dots) sharp corners, edges, great surface and a clean reverse 90/10 or better, the 65/35 centering will be ok for a 9, with some graders. Another grader will 8 the card. As for the print marks (dots), that too is a subjective call depending on the grader. I sugest you send a sample submission. 25 cards with some of the different characteristics mentioned above. Prior to sending the submission, write down what you think the +'s and or -'s of each card is. When you receive the grades, compare your notes with the grades given. After a few submissions you'll earn your BS in grading science. With all the Masters and PHD's in grading on this board, I'm sure you will receive more tips in the next few days. Good luck!

John/mx'er

BTW....are you starting a 61 topps set, or will the cards be for sale?

____________________________________
I'm still holding Buckwheats #523 & 559
hoatage until he pays PC for the 1/1 Gibbon 9

MorrellMan

John, thanks for the advice - I had planned on making notes on my copy of the submission form to compare with what comes back, so it's good to hear that's the way to do it - I think I have to do a minimum of 50 cards, don't I? In regards to the future of these guys - I don't know! I've had this batch of 3rd series beauties for about 20 years and I figured it was time slab the commons; the stars (Drysdale, Gibson, Spahn, Yankees team) have come back as 8s and 7s, but I sold off the nicest ones (except the ones in my two sets) back in the 80s before there was grading and before the price explosion - ah well! I'm just digging getting these things graded right now; I'll figure out what to do further down the line.

magellan

Best of luck with your submission Mark. I have my first one (69's) just about ready to go. I'm hoping for 7's & 8's but think I have more 6's & 7's

Dave

PlayBall

<< <i>i will add that i cant ever recall seeing a roughcut psa 10. >>



Now you have

highend

wow!, and the rough cut is very pronounced. i know very little about vintage football but i'm curious to see what that card commands.

67standup

As a pre-1977 OPC baseball collector, it's nice to see such a post. Many good replies, only thing to add is that SGC is brutal on OPC rough cuts. Some raw cards that I thought were NM (with magnifier) received 70s and 80s. It's not that PSA is more lenient, they just seem to know more about OPCs. However, many OPCs are also notorious for bad centering, therefore, I receive many qualifiers. Try to find 1973s (especially #1 HR leader or Aaron) centered. As for Beckett, the know refractor, glossy, supreme foil, Yu-goo-gi watchamacallit, etc. so I would never send anything vintage their way. However, the day I own a gem 1986 Donruss common, they get first dibs.

purelyPSA

Mark - I've never seen a '61 with a pull mark that got a 9, but I'm fairly new to the set so it might have happened. Buckwheat is the guy to ask about that. I've seen many 8s with pull marks, some fairly severe, though I try to avoid those when I'm bidding.

mikeschmidt

<< <i>As a pre-1977 OPC baseball collector, it's nice to see such a post. Many good replies, only thing to add is that SGC is brutal on OPC rough cuts. Some raw cards that I thought were NM (with magnifier) received 70s and 80s. It's not that PSA is more lenient, they just seem to know more about OPCs. However, many OPCs are also notorious for bad centering, therefore, I receive many qualifiers. Try to find 1973s (especially #1 HR leader or Aaron) centered. As for Beckett, the know refractor, glossy, supreme foil, Yu-goo-gi watchamacallit, etc. so I would never send anything vintage their way. However, the day I own a gem 1986 Donruss common, they get first dibs. >>




Hmm - that is curious, as I have a 1980 OPC Mike Schmidt card graded SGC 92 8.5 NM/MT+ that is very much rough cut, and seems to be out and out overgraded. It's not a bad card - but it is not an 8.5 I've had a lot of nice 1980 OPC Schmidt cards, too (a lot being relative....), and the SGC 92 I have just doesn't excite me in any way....

67standup

I was referring to pre-1977 OPC, especially those with colored borders - 1968 and 1971, sorry I wasn't clear. Many within OPC circles would probably concur. I have limted experience with post 1977 OPCs. On a side note, what's considered the "Holy Grail" of Schmidt collectibles/cards, the Puerto Rican minor league?

mikeschmidt

<< <i>I was referring to pre-1977 OPC, especially those with colored borders - 1968 and 1971, sorry I wasn't clear. Many within OPC circles would probably concur. I have limted experience with post 1977 OPCs. On a side note, what's considered the "Holy Grail" of Schmidt collectibles/cards, the Puerto Rican minor league? >>



Tough to say. Believe it or not, a few years ago, the 1972 Puerto Rican Sticker was largely ignored. I acquired the 1/1 PSA 9 for a relative bargain, all things considered. The last PSA example to even be in inventory was a PSA 7 that Levi Bleam of 707 had available for $800, I believe. I do not know what it actually ended up selling for (e.g. if it was discounted at all). The 1977 Venezuelan sticker is exceptionally tough, the 1982 FBI Bantam disc is pretty tough, the Red Barn disc is pretty tough, and there are quite a few other rare ones out there. 1985 Topps Mini is a tough one, too. Heck - I even know someone that has Mike Schmidt HS yearbook, which pictures him in a basketball uniform.

estang

I find the rough cut to be very unattrractive, and I believe warrants a stronger mark against getting a high grade. I've noticed that both PSA and SGC are lenient with rough cuts.

I would surmise the "rough cut" is caused when the blades of the machinery were needing replacement or sharpening. The rough cut wasn't intended, just like an off-center cut is not. It's a quality control issue (defect), in my opinion. What I don't understand is how prevalent it is from year to year and within a set.

I think I'd rather have a slightly off-center (60/40) sharp edged card than a 50/50 rough cut. Just my preference. I've tended to check for it and pass when I see them, more often than not.

norty

As a counter point to estang, I love rough cuts. It shows the card has not been handled much.

watchdog005

Since no two rough cuts are identical it gives the card a unique signature to identify the card in case it's lost or stolen. It's not an altered card since it came from the factory that way and it's common for that era. If you trimmed it now you have ruined the card. Rough cuts assure that card wasn't trimmed so they do have their advantages.

JoeBanzai

@estang said:

>

I would surmise the "rough cut" is caused when the blades of the machinery were needing replacement or sharpening. The rough cut wasn't intended, just like an off-center cut is not. It's a quality control issue (defect), in my opinion. What I don't understand is how prevalent it is from year to year and within a set.

Also can be caused by cutting too many sheets at a time.

I used to operate a shear that cut base material and if you cut too many thin sheets at a time the edges would exhibit a rough cut and even sometimes stick together.

I think rough cuts are ugly.

RTB7

This is an image I saw on either eBay or PSA about 10 or 15 years ago that amazed me about the grading of rough cuts!
Rough cut in vintage is really sort of a "badge of honor" in that indicates no trimming and minimum handling. Don't worry about submitting a centered rough cut card! I personally have submitted a centered rough cut vintage card that popped at PSA 9.

prgsdw

I'm a fan of rough cuts on cards from this era. Here's another example.

JoeBanzai

@prgsdw said:
I'm a fan of rough cuts on cards from this era. Here's another example.

Absolutely LOVE that cards...........but that left edge is fugly.

smallstocks

I am in the camp of those that love rough cuts! I love that left edge!

mariner

I also love the rough cuts.

reelinintheyears

PSA certainly doesn't downgrade rough cuts. Here's a '79 OPC PSA 10 currently for sale on ebay. Aesthetically, I prefer similar rough cuts on both sides over examples like this one and the Lilly above.