question about "sms" designation

golddustin

I notice that PCGS lists separate prices for certain modern coins that were issued in special mint sets, as opposed to business strikes. Are they able to tell the difference due to the proof-like quality of the coins, or are the coins designated thus by those who submit them? Is it as easy as a different mint mark? (I don't think so, cuz I think I saw some w/same mint mark priced for both reg and sms issues.)

LovethoseIndians

Thats a great question! Normally those years had "prooflike" quality but I would imagine that the very first few die strikes were pretty damn good. I guess it would not matter though as a damn good coin is a damn good coin and way you "strike" it....

golddustin

Yes - that's my point exactly....since a person can't submit the coin in it's original sms holder, how would PCGS know to which category to place the graded coin into? Have all the coins graded or priced w/sms been submitted together after being broken from holder? I can't figure out how they would know the difference, unless the submission form indicated it.

Russ

It depends on the coin. Early strike SMS coins are easy to tell from their business strike counterparts because they look very much like proofs. Some very early strikes off fresh dies can be cameo or deep cameo. Later strikes from worn dies can be impossible to tell from well struck business strikes, and PCGS is no better at figuring it out than the rest of us.

A lot of nice business strike coins end up in SMS holders just because the graders assume that if it looks really good, it must be an SMS.

Here is an example of an early strike off of excellent dies:



Here is an example of a little bit later strike:



And, even later:



And, later than that:



Note how the amount of frost in the fields progessively increases, while the cameo contrast progressively decreases. In all cases, though, it is very easy to tell that these are SMS coins.

But, is this an SMS?



Or, is it a business strike? A late strike SMS coin can look like that, but I believe it is the latter, PCGS thought it was the former and stuck it in an SMS holder. They will be seeing it again.

Russ, NCNE

Russ

<< <i>I can't figure out how they would know the difference, unless the submission form indicated it. >>



It is indicated by coin number on the submission form. Doesn't matter, though, since they'll still cop out and stick a business strike that looks too good in an SMS holder. It's a big issue because the business strikes are worth a lot more in high grade than the SMS coins.

Russ, NCNE

golddustin

So, even if you specify that the coin did not come from a special mint set, PCGS will use it's own discretion in designating the coin? That could cost a person some serious $$ in lost value!

Russ

<< <i>So, even if you specify that the coin did not come from a special mint set, PCGS will use it's own discretion in designating the coin? >>



Yes.

Russ, NCNE

JRocco

That is really interesting Russ. I have always looked at the area between the lettering and the rim to make my judgment of VEDS EDS MDS or LDS or dare I say VLDS(yuck). You use the fields in your example. Thanks for showing me that variation.

melikecoins

What did that circulation strike grade as an SMS Russ?

I have had that happen alot with Lincolns

Glen

Russ

<< <i>What did that circulation strike grade as an SMS Russ? >>



They graded it MS67. I had it going MS66.

Russ, NCNE

melikecoins

No wonder you want it just plain MS less the extra S

Glen