Is there a card doctor in the house?

toppsgun · March 4, 2004 6:32AM

What's the deal with this I found over on the Network54 board?

Dr. BOTN?

schr1st · March 4, 2004 6:39AM

Ok, that was a low blow, even for you toppsgun. Greg may be many things, and he and I have gone head to head on many issues, but for you to insinuate that he is altering cards is uncalled for. You want to bash SGC for missing the repairs on the card, be my guest; in fact, I'll pull up a chair and join you. Your insinuation about Greg is way over the line though, and you owe the man an apology for your statements.

<< Replying to Thread: Is there a card doctor in the house?

What's the deal with this I found over on the Network54 board?

Dr. BOTN? >>

toppsgun · March 4, 2004 6:43AM

No mention whatsoever of "trimming" in my post.

KallMaloneSay · March 4, 2004 6:44AM

Toppsgun appears to be going just based on evidence. I don't know him, but all I've ever heard about Greg has been good so far. Since Greg isn't allowed to stand up for himselves out here, maybe Zardoz will. Wow, haven't seen these names on this board in a while.

schr1st · March 4, 2004 6:44AM

Excuse me, altering. I've edited and expanded on my previous post.

RonD · March 4, 2004 6:45AM

I think Toppsgun is only asking a question and providing a post for those who have not seen it. Don't think he is saying anything concrete.

This hobby is wacky. Or are we all wacky for collecting?????????????????

toppsgun · March 4, 2004 6:59AM

"you owe the man an apology for your statements."

Er..ah..I made no statements, only asked two (2) questions. Therefore, no apology warranted.

schr1st · March 4, 2004 7:31AM

Ok then, how about an apology for your insinuations? Dr. Botn? Card doctor? You can play cute all you want, but your intent is clear.

<< "you owe the man an apology for your statements."

Er..ah..I made no statements, only asked two (2) questions. Therefore, no apology warranted. >>

aro13 · March 4, 2004 7:37AM

Very unfair to accuse BOTN of having anything to do with altering the card. To me the major issue here is that GAI, SGC and BOTN all missed a major alteration. BOTN even cannot see the alteration after knowing where it was done. That is scary. It seems the card doctors are winning and not even the grading companies can apparently stop them.

qualitycards · March 4, 2004 8:04AM

<< That is scary. It seems the card doctors are winning and not even the grading companies can apparently stop them. >>

ARO - That indeed is a concern, Greg knows his stuff and still can't find the alterations. He at least is doing the right thing and taking that card out of circulation, and I commend him for that...jay

Igloo · March 4, 2004 8:32AM

I really like baseball cards. Say, that reminds me, didnt aro13 have a few questions he wanted to ask me?

aro13 · March 4, 2004 11:13AM

Igloo - So do you think that the grading companies are getting lax about thoroughly examining cards under the "black light" or are the restoration experts getting better at hiding their work?

GlennGaryGlennRoss · March 4, 2004 11:24AM

So assuming that Greg got taken by someone else altering a card and selling it to him, Greg spends every waking moment pointing out PSA mistakes. This is really very ironic. We now have a situation where either a) he isn't so swell at spotting alterations or 2) he's really good at doing alterations and SGC isn't so swell at catching them. I guess everyone should think twice before reslabbing all of their PSA cards in SGC holders.

Igloo · March 4, 2004 11:36AM

call me crazy, but b comes after a.

toppsgun · March 4, 2004 11:52AM

"Very unfair to accuse BOTN of having anything to do with altering the card."

Unfair? Maybe, maybe not.

Botn and only a couple other people had possession of the card between the time of the original NW-54 poster's ownership and the card's finding a home in the SGC holder.

At the very least, botn should've jumped on SGC just as heavily as he does PSA. Guess it depends on who's ox is being gored, now doesn't it.

Actually a quite plausible assumption to at least investigate. At the very least, the seriousness of the charges elevate it to an inquiry. Seems former Senator George Mitchell (D-ME) and new Chairman of Disney made such a statement regarding a political event not too long ago.

edited to change word to "ownership" in bold above

Igloo · March 4, 2004 2:18PM

I have not yet taken a side on this issue. I'm still weighing the pros and cons carefully and systematickly. Truth is what I'm after. So is better spelling and grammer. And I wont stop until I find it. Even if I have to look in some really uncomfortable places. Thank you.

carew4me · March 4, 2004 10:15PM

As someone else said, Karma baby, sow it, reap it

zardoz51 · March 4, 2004 11:08PM

While there is no love lost between BOTN and PSA, and I don't believe that either expect a Christmas card from each other, this accusation is kinda pushing the envelope. As it so happens, I do know indirectly about the lot that this card was in, and I know of the seller and the type of material that he sells.

The seller in question looks for bargain lots and flips them quickly. I have seen him spend 11K on a lot, load it onto his cart, shuffle over across the room at a show and move it for 11,400.

I can only surmise that this card was in this lot as a bit of flash. Greg did not buy this card off ebay, and we really have no idea as to the chain of custody until it came into his possession. I have not spoken with Greg in a long time and certainly have had no communication in regards to this matter. All I can say is that Greg in the past has refused to have anything to do with doctored cards and have seen him walk away from deals with dubious material.

I am so happy that no one here has ever obtained a card in a lot that has been altered in some way, or inadvertantly or unknowingly sold or traded a card that ended up being brought into question as to its authenticity in some way.

The reason that I haven't been seen too much within living memory is that I currently have to handle my Mother's medical problems. Her heart isn't what it once was and has required me to travel back and forth to take care of the stubborn woman! She's 81 years old now, recently had a couple of heart attacks, and is driving me nuts with her refusal to slow down. This has caused me to somewhat shelve the card aspect of my life. To top matters off, my 20 year old son destroyed his knee in a pick up game of football, tearing his ACL and ALL the other tendons and ligaments. He goes in for reconstructive surgery on Monday, and they will have to take bone and ligament out of his other leg to perform this rebuild, so I will have him recuperating for the next 6+ months. And people wonder why I'm nuts!

As soon as my life gets on an even keel, I will be back to annoy and subject you folks to my obtuse humor.

qualitycards · March 4, 2004 11:43PM

ZARDOZ - Good to see you post again.
I hope everything goes well with your family, and you can get back here and post w/ that wit that made you a household name.
We haven't had a good hamburger discussion in ages, and I long for the days of your statements w/ keen rebuttals from the likes of the
NOGGLES & NIPPER, ah yes sir, those were the days....all the best

...jay

GlennGaryGlennRoss · March 4, 2004 11:52PM

<>

Glad that Greg gets the benefit of the doubt, unlike PSA who gets thrown under the bus before they even get a chance to investigate.

Makes perfect sense to me.

wolfbear · March 4, 2004 11:56PM

zardoz - sorry to hear of all the bad luck that has befallen you and your family.

Makes all of our collections of little pieces of cardboard seem not so important.

Hope all works out for the best,
and it's good to hear that you will be back to irritate and infuriate us again at some point.

theBobs · March 5, 2004 12:01AM

Paul -- Thanks for the update & best wishes on the issues with which you are dealing. Contact me if you have the opportunity.

koby · March 5, 2004 3:34AM

Here are some interesting questions posed by a collector from across the street:

<< 
Re: For the latest SGC grading mystery look at this [Re: botn]
#415074 - 03/05/04 01:27 PM Edit Reply Quote

I think we can all agree on three things:

1) The card has been altered/restored.
2) SGC made a mistake in encapsulating the card.
3) SGC handled the problem in a professional manner.

The question that needs to be addressed is:

Who is responsible for the alteration/restoration of this card?

We have the following information:

1) RUNSCOTT (from the Network 54 forum) owned the card in a raw state -- he has provided a scan of the card which shows the condition when he owned it.

2) BOTN currently owns the card and it is in an SGC holder -- he has provided a scan of the card which shows the current condition of it. Note that the current condition of the card is much different from that of when RUNSCOTT owned it.

3) BOTN claims to have purchased the card raw at a large card show in Chicago.

4) BOTN claims that he originally had the card graded/encapsulated by GAI and that it was offered for sale on his website for a long period of time.

5) BOTN claims that he decided to have the card graded/encapsulated by SGC approximately one month ago due to the fact that the card did not sell in the GAI holder.

What we do NOT have is:

1) The name of the dealer that BOTN purchased the card from at the large card show in Chicago.

2) A scan of the card when it was in the GAI holder.

I find this to be rather odd. Considering that BOTN offered the card in the GAI holder on his website for a long period of time, it would seem obvious that BOTN is in possession of a scan of the card in the GAI holder....yet he has not posted it. Why? Why would BOTN not post it? Did he conveniently delete the scan from his hard drive? Will that scan show us something that BOTN does not want us to see? And why hasn't the dealer that sold the card to BOTN been named? Perhaps that dealer can tell us something that BOTN does not want us to know?
>>

gemint · March 5, 2004 5:14AM

Paul I'll keep your family in my thoughts and prayers. Here's hoping you return soon with funny and insightful posts as well as good news regarding your mom and son.

toppsgun · March 5, 2004 6:13AM

koby,

No one here wants to jump to any conclusions, but it's very difficult to avoid TRYING to connect the dots.

Still more questions than answers.

ranch · March 5, 2004 7:06AM

RUNSCOTT also wrote this:

<< The guy who bought it from me sold it with the back described as clean. I emailed him mentioning the tear and he said the card was fine and that I was just jealous because he was going to get more for it than I did. I won't give his name, but he re-sold the card on ebay on July 29, 2002, after winning it from me for $369 on May 8,2002. >>

What's up with that?

koby · March 5, 2004 11:08AM

<< RUNSCOTT also wrote this:

<< The guy who bought it from me sold it with the back described as clean. I emailed him mentioning the tear and he said the card was fine and that I was just jealous because he was going to get more for it than I did. I won't give his name, but he re-sold the card on ebay on July 29, 2002, after winning it from me for $369 on May 8,2002. >>

What's up with that? >>

This leads me to think that this guy is the card doctor and not BOTN.

My concern is that a reputable grading company like SGC is letting altered cards through.

uniship · March 5, 2004 12:22PM

I hope BOTN can just post a scan of the Ty Cobb in the GAI grade to at least dispell the rumors that he doctored the card. For me, I hope I see the scan from BOTN; if so, it will clear him in my mind as a man of integrity, in spite of our differences in philosophy on many issues. If Greg fails to post the scan, well, that leaves so much to the assumption, so much so that in my mind he becomes the OJ of the cardworld - guilty in spite of what the jury says.

Greg, you said GAI graded the card. You said you had it on your website for sale - therefore, you MUST have a scan in your hardrive of that very card. If you can not produce a scan, then you, by ASSUMPTION, become very very guilty of doctoring cards. Given your venom towards card doctors and PSA letting them slide by, there must be no way that you are a card doctor. So to just solidify your standing as a reputable card dealer and honest person, please post the scan of the GAI graded card on the SGC website to restore some faith not only in your name, but in the hobby. Thanks in advance!

Eric Pugh

magellan · March 5, 2004 12:59PM

It appears that Greg was the one who brought this card up in the first place, if he were altering cards why would he do that ? Seems to me he is not the guilty party here but is still under a great deal of suspicion from some. If I were to point fingers my first suspect would be the guy Runscott sold it to as Koby mentioned. I don't have an agenda here, don't know Greg any better than I know any of you , though I have spent a little time across the street but I'm not Pro PSA, anti SGC or vice versa. Just my 2 cents.

Dave

pc · March 5, 2004 1:03PM

hey Paul-good luck with your son and mother.
i had the same surgery-for me the first 7 weeks
i'm told were miserable.lots of ethical drugs and
a wheelchair.keep the ice machine @ full blast.
uniship-wtf are you talking about?!?.save yourself
some money and dont bother applying to law school.
Greg is as honorable as anyone i've known and he is among
the few people i consider a real friend.all you
doubters go defend martha stewart .

calleocho · March 5, 2004 2:21PM

Good luck Paul....hope everything works out.

PC-

how would Greg react if this card was in DUDE or ACOWA hands?

if PSA had graded this doctored card would he be so gentle and simply say "mistakes happen"?

its quite ironic the many times that he would post about supposed doctored cards inside PSA holders that he has seen on a small ebay scan...and yet he could not tell the massive work that has been done to a card that he has right infront of him.

uniship · March 5, 2004 5:50PM

Greg emailed me with a scan of the gai version of the card. Check it out:

gai cobb

Thanks Greg. This assures me - for whatever it is worth - that the man does not doctor cards. Now, if only we can get him to support the Republican party, then we will be getting somewhere

Thanks again Greg for providing that.

Vargha · March 5, 2004 11:17PM

Igloo - So do you think that the grading companies are getting lax about thoroughly examining cards under the "black light" or are the restoration experts getting better at hiding their work?

It is my understanding that the black light is only applied when the grader has spotted something questionable. A grader going through a run of 1980 Topps cards will probably not even find one card that causes him to have to subject it to additional testing. Furthermore, much of the doctoring work is not the kind that will even show up under a black light. These guys who are the professional card doctors are experts in what they do. They aren't using exacto knives and black Sharpies.

Vargha · March 5, 2004 11:19PM

BTW -- As far as Greg goes, he can be extremely caustic at times and has certainly called me names and made insinuations about me in the past. However, I am certain that Greg does not alter cards.

EvilleKlownie · March 6, 2004 12:07AM

heh

toppsgun · March 6, 2004 1:49AM

wannabe?

more than likely someone having a little fun at Jimmy's expense.

EDITED TO SAY: HEY, WHAT'S UP WITH THIS, THE MODERATOR MOVED THIS POST FROM ANOTHER THREAD TO HERE, WHERE IT MAKES NO SENSE AT ALL. COME ON, MODERATOR, IF YOU DON'T LIKE THE POST JUST REMOVE IT, DON'T MOVE IT AROUND AT RANDOM.

CHEESH!!

RobE · March 6, 2004 10:18AM

I agree with David, but the example he uses for a run of cards not checked for doctors has been known to have Henderson Fakes.

Greg is a really nice guy and he seems like a rock in a hard place at times but he's always appears to be looking to do right by the hobby and the collector.

GlennGaryGlennRoss · March 6, 2004 11:24AM

Greg is a really great guy. Without him, I just couldn't go on collecting anymore. He's an ASSet of the hobby.

Reid · April 26, 2004 10:25AM

schr1st wrote:

<< Greg may be many things, and he and I have gone head to head on many issues, but for you to insinuate that he is altering cards is uncalled for. >>

KallMaloneSay wrote:

<>

aro13 wrote:

<< Very unfair to accuse BOTN of having anything to do with altering the card. >>

zardoz51 wrote:

<< this accusation is kinda pushing the envelope >>

<< All I can say is that Greg in the past has refused to have anything to do with doctored cards and have seen him walk away from deals with dubious material. >>

koby wrote:

<< This leads me to think that this guy is the card doctor and not BOTN. >>

magellan wrote:

<< Seems to me he is not the guilty party here >>

pc wrote:

<< Greg is as honorable as anyone i've known >>

uniship wrote:

<< the man does not doctor cards >>

Vargha wrote:

<>

RobE wrote:

<< Greg is a really nice guy and he seems like a rock in a hard place at times but he's always appears to be looking to do right by the hobby and the collector. >>

Anybody want to retract their statements?

GlennGaryGlennRoss · April 26, 2004 10:37AM

I still believe he is an ASSet. Nothing he has done lately changes that opinion.

toppsgun · April 26, 2004 11:27AM

Toppsgun...way ahead of his time (well, at least 6 weeks ahead).

However, anyone that exposes and draws out Wince as BOTN did this past weekend can't be all bad. I can only hope there's more moss growing that we haven't seen yet. Something tells me there is.

schr1st · April 26, 2004 12:45PM

Helping of crow, table 2 please!

I don't think Greg admitted to any trimming in the "weekend throwdown", just the mudslinging by MW. I could be wrong though, as most of that thread tends to run together in my memory now, and I don't know if I want to go and re-read the whole thing again.

Reid · April 26, 2004 1:00PM

<< Toppsgun...way ahead of his time (well, at least 6 weeks ahead). >>

Many hobbyists have known the truth for years. I'd say you're a bit slow.

<< However, anyone that exposes and draws out Wince as BOTN did this past weekend can't be all bad. I can only hope there's more moss growing that we haven't seen yet. Something tells me there is. >>

The only thing that BOTN exposed this past weekend was his own lack of credibility/integrity. Only an ignoramus would believe otherwise.

WinPitcher · April 26, 2004 1:07PM

Griffins · April 26, 2004 1:13PM

I think its time to throw in my 2 cents, not that anyone asked....
I've had the good fortune to live in basically the same neighborhood for all of my 42 years. As time goes on many of the people that have passed thru my life pass thru again, sometimes with a large number of years in between, sometimes not. But in virtually every case the common thread is that people don't seem to change from their basic nature- if they were a slimeball as a kid, they have usually honed that craft as an adult. Conversely, the good people have stayed good.
Within the context of that I've known Greg since High School. It wasn't until a couple of years ago I realized it was the same Greg Schwartz. Greg has always been a good guy, loyal to his friends and fair even to his detractors. I don't believe this has changed in the past 25+ years. If you were to say anything negative about him it would be that diplomacy is not a virtue he has embraced, but honesty certainly is.
I can cite several examples of cases where Greg has done something good for me by going out of his way to help when he didn't need to, even before either of us realized who the other was. But it would be anecdotal, and the point can be made without rabbitting on.
One of the great things about the internet is that it has the ability to bring many of us together who have a common interest. The downside is that we only get to know each other thru posts such as these, and how well can you really know someone by reading a few lines? I'm sure that given a chace to meet Greg in person many of you that post negatively about him would change your mind- he's always been pretty popular among his peers.
I hope that I'll get a chance to meet many of you this summer- I've made a lot of friends on here, and as we have seen there is more to a person than what they jot down on a chat board.
Sincerely
Anthony

PS I've not addressed the issue of card doctoring, but in looking at BOTN's inventory and the grade's contained therein I would certainly think that if those cards were doctored they would get higher grades than the 2's and 3's that most have received. But I'll leave that judgement up to each of you.

edited because I wasn't an english major.

Tempura · April 26, 2004 1:17PM

not sure botn has done anything wrong when i read the posts. not sure that botn proved that bmw is a doctor either.

though bmw probably should not have elaborated on the restoration topic. seemed over compensating at best.

they both accomplished acting foolish by not doing this in a ring or at least behind closed doors.

Reid · May 10, 2004 2:05AM

TTT for Network54's "runscott"

Link

koby · May 10, 2004 2:36AM

<< 
Greg is as honorable as anyone i've known >>

LMAO

envoy98 · May 10, 2004 3:53AM

Did I actually just spend the last half hour of my life reading that? I guess that's 30 minutes I'll never get back. I have to admit, it did get somewhat interesting at one point... Then it just got personal and the arguments were personal attacks. WOW...

If anyone wants to forgo 30 minutes of their life to be entertained for 5...here's the link.
Life waster du jour

dude · May 10, 2004 4:59AM

Reid -- That link you posted today shows nothing but some old pictures of men piling on top of some elephants. What's that all about?

Reid · May 15, 2004 10:05AM

<< Reid -- That link you posted today shows nothing but some old pictures of men piling on top of some elephants. What's that all about? >>

Dude,

The link went to a thread started by Network54's "runscott". His post was about a project that he is working on. The project focuses on the history of the altered Cobb card that BOTN was trying to sell. The thread was quickly deleted by the Network54 moderator, Bill Cornell. Apparently Mike Baker isn't the only person that BOTN kisses up to.

Reid Colello

Is there a card doctor in the house?

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